Mysterious sword from Elgood's book

Rivkin · 23rd October 2006, 10:21 PM

I think Baburname can not offer us anything new on Shashka/Buchara sabre relationship, something we I think will discuss many more times

.

What I was trying to do by my post if first of all bring examples of trade relationships in the region and how armour and weapons from one place would get to the other place.
The second thing was something I have been trying to do for a very long time - with Ottoman empire we destinguish between Syrian, Balkan, Trabzon, Anatolian styles, not even to mention the whole african aspect. With tiny Georgia we see the differences between the west and the east, between Imerethi and Tbilisi.
But when it comes to colossal Persian Empire all we see in museums is "persian shamshir, XVIIIth century", or "Zand sword" or "Safavid sword", or may be something with such vague as Aryan. I think we need to put extra effort to be way more precise than this. Where it was made ? Is it characteristic for a certain part of Persia or for a certain tribe ?
And here is a good example - if we believe in the source we can reasonably state that the armour of Shah Abbas was made in Circassia. While it is no part of Persia, it nevertheless makes our knowledge of Persian armour more specific. Hopefully one day we will be able to identify weapons and patterns specific for Azeris, Kurds, Georgians, Armenian swordmakers, Arabs and so on and so on.

ariel · 24th October 2006, 02:09 AM

Check on this thread: BI posted pics of Bukharan "shashkas" as described by Phillip
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=911
And I posted an "Afghani shashka" that has some of the above characteristics as well
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2695
I completely agree with Rivkin: we tend to lump all Persian or Central Asian swords together.
But just look at garden variety Afghani Khyber knives: there are several variants of handles obviously coming from different areas/tribes. I would not encorage anybody to go there these days for a field research tour

But we should keep it in mind.

Philip · 24th October 2006, 08:55 AM

Dear Ariel and Rivkin
You guys are both so correct -- under the umbrella of an entity such as "Qajar Iran" are different peoples with distinct cultural differences. Everybody thinks of "Persia" as being nothing but native Farsi-speaking "Aryans". But you have Kurds, Baluchs, various other tribal groups, plus the folks from Meshhed who are part descended from Mongols. The material culture, including the arms they made or used, must have had subtle differences. I sense this from costume and carpet design, so why not weapons? Yes, we need more research.

Do either of you have Manouchehr's new book on Persian arms? Does it address such points about cultural subtypes within Persia? I haven't ordered my copy yet, I hope it's a good book and worth the money. I respect your opinions so please tell me.

Thanks for posting pics of the "Afghani shashkas". I had not included those in my exposition, I focused only on bukharskas. But interesting to see that the afghanskas do have the ricasso at the forte, but their pommel ears are split just as on the Caucasian models.

ariel · 28th October 2006, 01:30 AM

Here is an Afghani/Uzbeki Shashka that just ended.
We have seen them before , but here is just another example: Repetitio mater studiorum est ( repetition is a mother of learning)
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...MEWA:IT&ih=018

Zifir · 28th October 2006, 01:53 AM

I saw this sword a while ago in a turkish auction site. The seller was claiming that this was not a shashka but a janissary sword. And saying that the grip still had the waxed ribbon which was used to prevent the slipping of the weapon from user's hand. Any opinions?

Philip · 28th October 2006, 05:53 AM

No, I don't think this is a "janissary sword". The hilt form is a classic Caucasian-style shashka. The plain horn is a simple type used by the commoners, not the chieftains. Also, this style of plain horn grip was officially adopted by the Russians on their "Caucasian pattern" enlisted man's shashka, Model 1904 (see Eugene Mollo, RUSSIAN MILITARY SWORDS 1801-1917, London: Historical Research Unit 1969, p. 39, also see A. N. Kulinsky, RUSSKOYE KHOLODNOYE ORUZHIYE: VOENNYKH, MORSKICH, I GRAZHDANSKICH CHINOV, 1800-1917g, St Petersburg, Magik Press 1994, pp 88-89).

However, the blade on this example doesn't match the 1904 regulation. It appears to be a military saber blade of common type from some Western country. Without dimensions and notes on markings, it's difficult to place it in terms of country or unit. From its style it looks 19th cent, thru early 20th. The slender profile, broad fuller, and prominent ricasso are key identifying characteristics as European/British/American, factory made of common military style.

Zifir · 29th October 2006, 01:17 AM

Philip, thank you for the comments. Unfortunately I forgot to note down the measurements of the sword when I saved these pictures. His claim for it being a 'janissary' sword did not convince me, but you may never know. So I wanted to take some expert opinion. I have not seen the waxed ribbon thing before, which specifically attacted my attention to this piece.

24th October 2006, 08:55 AM	#3
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	differentiating the arms of sub-groups within an empire Dear Ariel and Rivkin You guys are both so correct -- under the umbrella of an entity such as "Qajar Iran" are different peoples with distinct cultural differences. Everybody thinks of "Persia" as being nothing but native Farsi-speaking "Aryans". But you have Kurds, Baluchs, various other tribal groups, plus the folks from Meshhed who are part descended from Mongols. The material culture, including the arms they made or used, must have had subtle differences. I sense this from costume and carpet design, so why not weapons? Yes, we need more research. Do either of you have Manouchehr's new book on Persian arms? Does it address such points about cultural subtypes within Persia? I haven't ordered my copy yet, I hope it's a good book and worth the money. I respect your opinions so please tell me. Thanks for posting pics of the "Afghani shashkas". I had not included those in my exposition, I focused only on bukharskas. But interesting to see that the afghanskas do have the ricasso at the forte, but their pommel ears are split just as on the Caucasian models.

28th October 2006, 01:53 AM	#5
Zifir Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Istanbul Posts: 228	I saw this sword a while ago in a turkish auction site. The seller was claiming that this was not a shashka but a janissary sword. And saying that the grip still had the waxed ribbon which was used to prevent the slipping of the weapon from user's hand. Any opinions? Attached Images

28th October 2006, 05:53 AM	#6
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	looks like a shaskha to me... No, I don't think this is a "janissary sword". The hilt form is a classic Caucasian-style shashka. The plain horn is a simple type used by the commoners, not the chieftains. Also, this style of plain horn grip was officially adopted by the Russians on their "Caucasian pattern" enlisted man's shashka, Model 1904 (see Eugene Mollo, RUSSIAN MILITARY SWORDS 1801-1917, London: Historical Research Unit 1969, p. 39, also see A. N. Kulinsky, RUSSKOYE KHOLODNOYE ORUZHIYE: VOENNYKH, MORSKICH, I GRAZHDANSKICH CHINOV, 1800-1917g, St Petersburg, Magik Press 1994, pp 88-89). However, the blade on this example doesn't match the 1904 regulation. It appears to be a military saber blade of common type from some Western country. Without dimensions and notes on markings, it's difficult to place it in terms of country or unit. From its style it looks 19th cent, thru early 20th. The slender profile, broad fuller, and prominent ricasso are key identifying characteristics as European/British/American, factory made of common military style.

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23rd October 2006, 10:21 PM	#1
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	I think Baburname can not offer us anything new on Shashka/Buchara sabre relationship, something we I think will discuss many more times . What I was trying to do by my post if first of all bring examples of trade relationships in the region and how armour and weapons from one place would get to the other place. The second thing was something I have been trying to do for a very long time - with Ottoman empire we destinguish between Syrian, Balkan, Trabzon, Anatolian styles, not even to mention the whole african aspect. With tiny Georgia we see the differences between the west and the east, between Imerethi and Tbilisi. But when it comes to colossal Persian Empire all we see in museums is "persian shamshir, XVIIIth century", or "Zand sword" or "Safavid sword", or may be something with such vague as Aryan. I think we need to put extra effort to be way more precise than this. Where it was made ? Is it characteristic for a certain part of Persia or for a certain tribe ? And here is a good example - if we believe in the source we can reasonably state that the armour of Shah Abbas was made in Circassia. While it is no part of Persia, it nevertheless makes our knowledge of Persian armour more specific. Hopefully one day we will be able to identify weapons and patterns specific for Azeris, Kurds, Georgians, Armenian swordmakers, Arabs and so on and so on.

24th October 2006, 02:09 AM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Check on this thread: BI posted pics of Bukharan "shashkas" as described by Phillip http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=911 And I posted an "Afghani shashka" that has some of the above characteristics as well http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2695 I completely agree with Rivkin: we tend to lump all Persian or Central Asian swords together. But just look at garden variety Afghani Khyber knives: there are several variants of handles obviously coming from different areas/tribes. I would not encorage anybody to go there these days for a field research tour But we should keep it in mind.

28th October 2006, 01:30 AM	#4
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Here is an Afghani/Uzbeki Shashka that just ended. We have seen them before , but here is just another example: Repetitio mater studiorum est ( repetition is a mother of learning) http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...MEWA:IT&ih=018

29th October 2006, 01:17 AM	#7
Zifir Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Istanbul Posts: 228	Philip, thank you for the comments. Unfortunately I forgot to note down the measurements of the sword when I saved these pictures. His claim for it being a 'janissary' sword did not convince me, but you may never know. So I wanted to take some expert opinion. I have not seen the waxed ribbon thing before, which specifically attacted my attention to this piece.