Meteoric iron used for keris's vs. for Indian weapons

BSMStar · 11th February 2005, 04:04 PM

nechesh,

Don't be sorry, the fault is mine. I know that I seem to suggest that only meteorites make the Keris "special" but... I fully agree with you!

It’s the pamor, and much, much more that makes the Keris so special. I was just referring to the one aspect that has been attached to the Keris... it's the pamor and meteorites that have separated the Keris from most weapons... which I believe is what started this thread.

Even not knowing the association with meteorites, who can gaze upon a wondrous Keris blade and not desire one? (I know the "bug" bit me bad!)

wolviex · 11th February 2005, 04:54 PM

Forgive me this question of ignorant European - how we can recognize meteoric iron or nickel on the blade?

nechesh · 11th February 2005, 06:35 PM

Aye wolviex, there's the rub!

Rick · 11th February 2005, 06:41 PM

From the archives :

http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/001122.html
Maybe some questions are answered here .

BSMStar · 11th February 2005, 11:36 PM

Your amazing Rick!

That was a great thread. Kind of fun to watch the Ti learning curve, thought important and later on to fall apart as not true...

I am still interested in learn more on how to identify pamor made with meteorite... it was a bit vague. Other than touch, are there any pictures that may be helpful? ASU has an Electron Micro Probe that will do the trick, but they will only test meteorites.

Rick · 12th February 2005, 12:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BSMStar

Your amazing Rick!

That was a great thread. Kind of fun to watch the Ti learning curve, thought important and later on to fall apart as not true...

I am still interested in learn more on how to identify pamor made with meteorite... it was a bit vague. Other than touch, are there any pictures that may be helpful?

We have covered a lot of subjects in the last 7-8 years .
Forum Search is a great resource .

For pictures ???
Well ....................
there's always ebay , I see lots of examples there .

BSMStar · 12th February 2005, 04:31 AM

Rick,

I respect you opinion, but it seems everyone claims to have a meteorite pamor on eBay... do I trust them all as a resource? Please keep in mind, I would not know a real pamor Prambanan if it jumped up and bit me.

tom hyle · 18th February 2005, 02:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

From the archives :

http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/001122.html
Maybe some questions are answered here .

Wow! Way cool. I note that the foreign wootz was considered an interesting material for a ganga, but not suitable for a fine blade

nechesh · 18th February 2005, 04:10 PM

Sorry Henk, it was not my intention to imply that Tammens claimed Groneman was told about meteoric pamor. This is just my logical assumption based on the fact that he was working with the epmus of the time when this pamor may have still been used and they, no doubt, still had a clear memory of the previous generation of empus who had been their teachers. I think it unlikely that since we don't seem to have a test today that can determine for sure if these forged metals are from celestial origins that they didn't have one in 1900 either. So what scientic test could Grneman have used to come up with such a finding. The word of the empus and perhaps seeing them actually working with meteoric pamor was probably enough evidence to the fact.
And no Tom, the idea of meteoric pamor is not a confusion. There is plenty of evidence that the Prambanan fall was used for this purpose. The confusion came later when somehow it became legend that ALL keris were made of such metals.
Okhba3, your information is very interesting. I would love to hear more evidence to this, since i am the eternal skeptic

. It is, of course, completely counter to the research of Tammens, but since i have already taken a swipe at some of that research i am not beyond believing that he may have been mistaken on this as well. I was not aware of these new discoveries and look foward to finding out more.

nechesh · 13th February 2005, 05:39 AM

Recently the work of the Polish metalurgist Prof. Jerzy Piaskowski has come to my attention. He has done considerable work in the analysis of keris structure. It is my understanding that even if you were to destroy a piece of a keris for analysis you would not be able to determine extra-terrestial origin after the materials have gone through the forging and welding process. Does anyone else know of any reputatable researcher who has actually worked on this subject that has a different answer to this question?
I find the concept of meteoric pamor to be very enticing like, i believe, most do. I certainly wouldn't mind owning a keris with such pamor. But i find the focus on this subject as relating to keris a bit troublesome. Why? So many reference books make mention of it, countless dealers lay claim to it in their keris. The facts as can best be sorted out is that meteoric pamor was used for a SELECT FEW keris beginning in the 19th century. So it was used for a relatively short period of time (100+yrs.) and even then it was far from the majority of keris being produced even in that century. It has done nothing to increase the artist level of keris making and though i can see why it might increase the spiritual value of a keris, this attribute of the blade did not begin nor end with the use of such a pamor material. I guess what i am driving at is that meteoric pamor is quite a bit over-valued as an aspect of keris study. It becomes a distraction of sorts. And unfortunately, unless it is a recently made blade that you had a part in the making of, or a court blade with considerable provenence (few and far between), one can never know for sure whether it's "star metal" or not.

Jens Nordlunde · 13th February 2005, 11:10 AM

Wolviex wrote: Forgive me this question of ignorant European - how we can recognize meteoric iron or nickel on the blade?

From the discussion it seems as if we can't be sure, but I did somewhere read that some could feel a prickle in the fingers when toutching meteoric iron. This does however not give any garantee as you can't prove that the blade is made of meteoric iron - besides I think that a strongly magbetic blade could/would give the same feeling.

Jens

BSMStar · 13th February 2005, 07:36 PM

nechesh,

Trace elements are a give away for cosmic origin... which is why chemical analysis is important. Yes... we can tell.

I find it troubling to use feel as a way to determine... since these blades are older and are likely to have been etched many times, where does the pattern or surface profile from etching fit in to this approach?

Is there no visually pattern reserved for this pamor?

Jens... I'm with you, more than a bit confussed.

I agree meteoritic pamor is not critical... but of historically importance and value.

nechesh · 13th February 2005, 08:39 PM

Wayne, i realize you are a scientist and when you refer to "yes...we can tell" i assume you are referring to the scientific community in general. I don't mean to challenge you on this point, but what are your experiences with metalurgy. I understand that you are a color chemist, which sounds really cool even if i don't know quite what you do, but does this qualify you to make this statement? Are you familar with Prof. Piaskowski's work? He has done years of study and compilation of data on this very subject and it is his belief, apparently, that you can not tell cosmic origin in keris metals that have been forged and welded. I know that scientists are apt to disagree, but until i hear research from another scientist who has actually tried to determine these factors with as many forged keris as Prof. Piaskowski has done i am inclined to lean towards his position on the matter, not being of the mind or abilities to do such research for myself.

Jim McDougall · 13th February 2005, 09:24 PM

I think the study of the use of meteoric metal from scientific perspective is fascinating, and the discussion here with those of you expert in keris and Indonesian weapons is excellent!
While somewhat digressing from the scientific perspective, I am wondering if the references and descriptions applied to these blades in earlier narratives referring to 'meteoric steel' may have been intended aesthetically. It seems that in the glossaries of keris jargon there are terms that apply specifically to such blades.

In "The Sword in Anglo Saxon England" by H.R.Ellis Davidson , N.Y. 1962,
on p.22 the author notes, "...Forbes suggested that the damask patterns might have been inspired by meteorites, which are covered with a thin film of iron oxide and when forged at low temperatures produce a distant pattern".

*"Metallurgy in Antiquity" R.J.Forbes, Leiden, 1950

While acknowledging that there were actually blades forged with this extra terrestrial material included with regular materials, I am wondering if possibly the term 'meteoric' may refer to a certain pattern or appearance in pamor.

Concerning the empirical approach to examining these blades metallurgically, after being faithfully hooked on the television series C.S.I. and the compelling forensics dramas, I cannot imagine that extra terrestrial origins of certain components could not be discovered in the labratory!!!

I sure wouldnt want to volunteer one of my prize weapons though!!! That is if I DID have one of these beautiful keris!

Best regards,
Jim

nechesh · 13th February 2005, 09:43 PM

I hate to be the one to break it to you Jim, but if you ever talked to anyone who actually does CSI type work you would find out pretty quickly just how much of that show borders on science fiction.

As far as i know there are no elements present in meteoric pamor that can not be found on earth. I think any recognizable crystalline structure that would ID a metal as meteoric would be destryed through the forging and welding process. So what would be the clue that remains to ID such metals as being of cosmic origin?
You theory about the term being an aesthetic reference is interesting, but i think this is more a case of early writers misunderstandings and repetition of the mistakes of others. I don't think meteoric pamor is meant to refer to a particular pattern or design in the pamor.

BSMStar · 13th February 2005, 10:08 PM

nechesh,

Thank you for keeping me honest. I have been out of that "community" for a long time... and I do not mean present my self as an "expert" to compete with any one, especially with Dr. Piaskowski. I mean "we" as the scientific community.

The Electron Micro Probe has been the main tool used in diagnosing meteorites for sometime now... just ask your friends who collect meteorites and send them in to Universities around the world for analysis. I use Arizona State University (ASU) in Tempe, AZ (Center for Meteorite Studies) because that’s where I went to school. Dr. Lewis also holds and analyzed many of the lunar samples gathered by NASA there at the Lab. I am sure Dr. Piaskowski is aware of this and the "EMP" techniques and data analysis. The question would be the sample (or how dilute the meteoritic material would be in a forged blade, then picking out parts per million of trace elements can be a challenge).

But the trace elements are a definite fingerprint for cosmic origin!

Jim,

You are right. There is no question about it. If there is enough meteoritic material, it can be detected. But like you... I would have second thoughts about testing for it too (even though it is not destructive, it creates a blemish).

11th February 2005, 11:36 PM	#5
BSMStar Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kansas City, MO USA Posts: 312	Great Thread! Your amazing Rick! That was a great thread. Kind of fun to watch the Ti learning curve, thought important and later on to fall apart as not true... I am still interested in learn more on how to identify pamor made with meteorite... it was a bit vague. Other than touch, are there any pictures that may be helpful? ASU has an Electron Micro Probe that will do the trick, but they will only test meteorites.

12th February 2005, 04:31 AM	#7
BSMStar Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kansas City, MO USA Posts: 312	eBay as a research resource... Rick, I respect you opinion, but it seems everyone claims to have a meteorite pamor on eBay... do I trust them all as a resource? Please keep in mind, I would not know a real pamor Prambanan if it jumped up and bit me.

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11th February 2005, 04:04 PM	#1
BSMStar Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kansas City, MO USA Posts: 312	nechesh, Don't be sorry, the fault is mine. I know that I seem to suggest that only meteorites make the Keris "special" but... I fully agree with you! It’s the pamor, and much, much more that makes the Keris so special. I was just referring to the one aspect that has been attached to the Keris... it's the pamor and meteorites that have separated the Keris from most weapons... which I believe is what started this thread. Even not knowing the association with meteorites, who can gaze upon a wondrous Keris blade and not desire one? (I know the "bug" bit me bad!)

11th February 2005, 04:54 PM	#2
wolviex Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Poland, Krakow Posts: 421	Forgive me this question of ignorant European - how we can recognize meteoric iron or nickel on the blade?

11th February 2005, 06:35 PM	#3
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Aye wolviex, there's the rub!

11th February 2005, 06:41 PM	#4
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,429	From the archives : http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/001122.html Maybe some questions are answered here .

18th February 2005, 04:10 PM	#9
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Sorry Henk, it was not my intention to imply that Tammens claimed Groneman was told about meteoric pamor. This is just my logical assumption based on the fact that he was working with the epmus of the time when this pamor may have still been used and they, no doubt, still had a clear memory of the previous generation of empus who had been their teachers. I think it unlikely that since we don't seem to have a test today that can determine for sure if these forged metals are from celestial origins that they didn't have one in 1900 either. So what scientic test could Grneman have used to come up with such a finding. The word of the empus and perhaps seeing them actually working with meteoric pamor was probably enough evidence to the fact. And no Tom, the idea of meteoric pamor is not a confusion. There is plenty of evidence that the Prambanan fall was used for this purpose. The confusion came later when somehow it became legend that ALL keris were made of such metals. Okhba3, your information is very interesting. I would love to hear more evidence to this, since i am the eternal skeptic . It is, of course, completely counter to the research of Tammens, but since i have already taken a swipe at some of that research i am not beyond believing that he may have been mistaken on this as well. I was not aware of these new discoveries and look foward to finding out more.

13th February 2005, 05:39 AM	#10
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Recently the work of the Polish metalurgist Prof. Jerzy Piaskowski has come to my attention. He has done considerable work in the analysis of keris structure. It is my understanding that even if you were to destroy a piece of a keris for analysis you would not be able to determine extra-terrestial origin after the materials have gone through the forging and welding process. Does anyone else know of any reputatable researcher who has actually worked on this subject that has a different answer to this question? I find the concept of meteoric pamor to be very enticing like, i believe, most do. I certainly wouldn't mind owning a keris with such pamor. But i find the focus on this subject as relating to keris a bit troublesome. Why? So many reference books make mention of it, countless dealers lay claim to it in their keris. The facts as can best be sorted out is that meteoric pamor was used for a SELECT FEW keris beginning in the 19th century. So it was used for a relatively short period of time (100+yrs.) and even then it was far from the majority of keris being produced even in that century. It has done nothing to increase the artist level of keris making and though i can see why it might increase the spiritual value of a keris, this attribute of the blade did not begin nor end with the use of such a pamor material. I guess what i am driving at is that meteoric pamor is quite a bit over-valued as an aspect of keris study. It becomes a distraction of sorts. And unfortunately, unless it is a recently made blade that you had a part in the making of, or a court blade with considerable provenence (few and far between), one can never know for sure whether it's "star metal" or not.

13th February 2005, 11:10 AM	#11
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Wolviex wrote: Forgive me this question of ignorant European - how we can recognize meteoric iron or nickel on the blade? From the discussion it seems as if we can't be sure, but I did somewhere read that some could feel a prickle in the fingers when toutching meteoric iron. This does however not give any garantee as you can't prove that the blade is made of meteoric iron - besides I think that a strongly magbetic blade could/would give the same feeling. Jens

13th February 2005, 07:36 PM	#12
BSMStar Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kansas City, MO USA Posts: 312	nechesh, Trace elements are a give away for cosmic origin... which is why chemical analysis is important. Yes... we can tell. I find it troubling to use feel as a way to determine... since these blades are older and are likely to have been etched many times, where does the pattern or surface profile from etching fit in to this approach? Is there no visually pattern reserved for this pamor? Jens... I'm with you, more than a bit confussed. I agree meteoritic pamor is not critical... but of historically importance and value.

13th February 2005, 08:39 PM	#13
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Wayne, i realize you are a scientist and when you refer to "yes...we can tell" i assume you are referring to the scientific community in general. I don't mean to challenge you on this point, but what are your experiences with metalurgy. I understand that you are a color chemist, which sounds really cool even if i don't know quite what you do, but does this qualify you to make this statement? Are you familar with Prof. Piaskowski's work? He has done years of study and compilation of data on this very subject and it is his belief, apparently, that you can not tell cosmic origin in keris metals that have been forged and welded. I know that scientists are apt to disagree, but until i hear research from another scientist who has actually tried to determine these factors with as many forged keris as Prof. Piaskowski has done i am inclined to lean towards his position on the matter, not being of the mind or abilities to do such research for myself.

13th February 2005, 09:24 PM	#14
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,857	I think the study of the use of meteoric metal from scientific perspective is fascinating, and the discussion here with those of you expert in keris and Indonesian weapons is excellent! While somewhat digressing from the scientific perspective, I am wondering if the references and descriptions applied to these blades in earlier narratives referring to 'meteoric steel' may have been intended aesthetically. It seems that in the glossaries of keris jargon there are terms that apply specifically to such blades. In "The Sword in Anglo Saxon England" by H.R.Ellis Davidson , N.Y. 1962, on p.22 the author notes, "...Forbes suggested that the damask patterns might have been inspired by meteorites, which are covered with a thin film of iron oxide and when forged at low temperatures produce a distant pattern". *"Metallurgy in Antiquity" R.J.Forbes, Leiden, 1950 While acknowledging that there were actually blades forged with this extra terrestrial material included with regular materials, I am wondering if possibly the term 'meteoric' may refer to a certain pattern or appearance in pamor. Concerning the empirical approach to examining these blades metallurgically, after being faithfully hooked on the television series C.S.I. and the compelling forensics dramas, I cannot imagine that extra terrestrial origins of certain components could not be discovered in the labratory!!! I sure wouldnt want to volunteer one of my prize weapons though!!! That is if I DID have one of these beautiful keris! Best regards, Jim

13th February 2005, 09:43 PM	#15
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	I hate to be the one to break it to you Jim, but if you ever talked to anyone who actually does CSI type work you would find out pretty quickly just how much of that show borders on science fiction. As far as i know there are no elements present in meteoric pamor that can not be found on earth. I think any recognizable crystalline structure that would ID a metal as meteoric would be destryed through the forging and welding process. So what would be the clue that remains to ID such metals as being of cosmic origin? You theory about the term being an aesthetic reference is interesting, but i think this is more a case of early writers misunderstandings and repetition of the mistakes of others. I don't think meteoric pamor is meant to refer to a particular pattern or design in the pamor.

13th February 2005, 10:08 PM	#16
BSMStar Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kansas City, MO USA Posts: 312	nechesh, Thank you for keeping me honest. I have been out of that "community" for a long time... and I do not mean present my self as an "expert" to compete with any one, especially with Dr. Piaskowski. I mean "we" as the scientific community. The Electron Micro Probe has been the main tool used in diagnosing meteorites for sometime now... just ask your friends who collect meteorites and send them in to Universities around the world for analysis. I use Arizona State University (ASU) in Tempe, AZ (Center for Meteorite Studies) because that’s where I went to school. Dr. Lewis also holds and analyzed many of the lunar samples gathered by NASA there at the Lab. I am sure Dr. Piaskowski is aware of this and the "EMP" techniques and data analysis. The question would be the sample (or how dilute the meteoritic material would be in a forged blade, then picking out parts per million of trace elements can be a challenge). But the trace elements are a definite fingerprint for cosmic origin! Jim, You are right. There is no question about it. If there is enough meteoritic material, it can be detected. But like you... I would have second thoughts about testing for it too (even though it is not destructive, it creates a blemish).