Moro shield

Bill M · 16th October 2006, 08:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cyclura99

Rattan Shield of Bill Marsh ........> I have one comment Bill says its in perfect condition.

I beg to differ ... I looked at the pics and see that brass wire is holding one of the handles of the shield together.Seems to me the other side is bound with rattan(original).In my book this is NOT perfect condtion since it has a repair to the shield .. You see the wire on the front of the shield as well.

Please check out the other thread Authentic MORO SHIELD to see a Classic Moro shield .... What I would call perfect condition considering its age ... A very fine example of a MORO shield..............

Cy

Chris,

I meant the shield itself is in perfect condition. No cuts, tears, damaged or loose rattan. Sure one of the handles has been re-wired on, but the rattan is untouched.

But thank you for your kind observation.

Please keep your pictures of authentic pieces coming. I, for one, enjoy looking at them!

Nick Wardigo · 16th October 2006, 05:41 PM

I'm of the opinion that this shield is likely Chinese. I've seen maybe a dozen Chinese shields over the years, and this one fits the general size, shape, composition, and weaving. The handles are a little odd, but it isn't anything that sends up a red flag to me.

Having said that, Ben is correct, the Barbier-Mueller book does identify a similar shield as Vietnamese. Also, a line drawing of a very similar shield shows up in Huard and Durand's book, VIET NAM CIVILIZATION AND CULTURE (the English translation of, CONNAISSANCE DU VIETNAM). That the Vietnamese and Chinese use similar (or identical) rattan shields is hardly surprising. The materials are readily available in that part of the world, and the resulting product is light and able to withstand a sword blow. Shields are not my area of expertise, but I would guess that, without specific provenance, it is impossible to tell the difference between Chinese and Vietnamese rattan shields (unless the shield is painted with the telltale tiger face, which is a Chinese affectation). All things being equal, I would say Chinese is the best guess because, statistically, I would expect more of these shields to be made in China.

Having said all that, I am not discounting the possibility of a Moro origin. Again, rattan is rattan, and any culture capable of making a rattan basket is certainly capable of making a rattan shield. The problem is, I have never seen a rattan shield attributed to any of the Moro peoples. The only Moro shields I've seen have been the round, wooden ones of various sizes.

Bill, do you have any photographic evidence that the Moros used rattan shields? Or, possibly, cite a written example? I have a passing curiousity about these things, and I'd appreciate any information you can provide.

Thanks,
Nick

Bill M · 17th October 2006, 09:23 AM

I have a shield book and a book on basketry of the Luzon on the way. I am hoping that these will provide more information. Will let you know when they arrive.

Thanks Ben for your help!

I am researching two areas, the basketry pattern as possibly being Luzon and the shape of the handles. These look like handles on many other Moro shields.

There is not a lot else to go on. I suspect it is a Moro "economy" shield. Unusual in that it seems quite old. Rare in that not a lot of rattan shields have survived intact.

Still curious about the hole in the center. Could this have once held some kind of boss? Or wooden plug?

Any other ideas? Certainly could be another culture!

zalmoxis · 18th October 2006, 02:45 AM

Hi it is a Vietnamese shield and more rare than the Moro shields.

Nick Wardigo · 19th October 2006, 10:33 PM

Hello Zelmoxis,

You sound very certain that this is Vietnamese and not Chinese. Do you know how to tell the two apart? Are you using a source other than the Barbier-Mueller book or the Huard and Durand book?

Honestly, up until now, I had thought the two shield designs to be identical. But, if you can distinguish them by weaving pattern or some other way, I REALLY want to know. I collect Vietnamese arms myself, and such information would be invaluable to me.

Just to give you an idea of my problem, I'm attaching a line drawing from the Chinese military manual, LIEN PING SHIH CHI, written and illustrated in 1571 (and reproduced in Osprey Military's, MEN-AT-ARMS SERIES, LATE IMPERIAL CHINESE ARMIES, 1520-1840). As you can see, it looks just like Bill's shield, or for that matter, any other large, round rattan shield.

Anyway, I hope you can help.

Philip · 20th October 2006, 06:37 AM

Sorry I'm a bit late to the discussion, but when LouieBlades posted a link to an eBay sale, I checked it and the shield did ring a bell. I'm convinced that the rattan shield that sold on eBay was not African as described, but a Chinese buckler called a "tengpai", in use until well into the 19th cent. The shape, manner of weaving, and the attachments for grasping attached to the concave back-side are typical. Most people would expect to see the painted "tiger face" motif that would immediately tip them off that it is Chinese, but I have encountered variations which include Chinese characters done with a brush in black paint, and others which (like this one) are perfectly plain. In the 1990s I had the chance to examine two plain ones in a large collection of Chinese arms in London; from their provenance, they were definitely not of African or Philippine origin.

Practically every tengpai I have seen has a smooth, shallow domed profile, although my colleague, Scott Rodell, has seen a conical example as depicted in the woodblock illustration that Nick Wardigo has so kindly posted. Some tengpai have round metal bosses in the center (similar in concept to those seen on Ottoman shields).

What strikes me as different about Bill's example which is the subject of this thread are:
1. The little "nipple" in the center
2. The pair of identical wood handgrips, in lieu of the usual single handgrip plus a wicker arm-loop.
These features merit further study and investigation. All in all, it's an interesting piece, and thanks to Bill for sharing it with us.

Nick Wardigo · 21st October 2006, 05:18 PM

I also wanted to mention that the Koreans used similar shields. I'm posting drawings from the recent translation of the Muye Dobo Tongji, the Korean military manual originally commissioned in 1790 by King Jungjo. Six of the fighting systems, including shield fighting, were based on an older Korean manual, the Muye Jebo, published shortly after 1598. This, in turn, was based upon a Ming (Chinese) military manual (I believe the same one that the drawing above comes from; the author's name is similar ["Ch'i Chi-kuang" in the Osprey book; "Chuk Kye-kwang" in the Muye Dobo Tongji]).

My point is, rattan shield-fighting was prevalent in China, Vietnam, and Korea as early as the 16th century (probably much earlier), still widely used in 1790 (at least enough to warrant prominent mention in a Korean military manual), and existed at least until the end of the nineteenth century. There was clearly a sharing of shield-fighting techniques across borders, and I would expect also a sharing of shield-making techniques, if not the shields themselves.

In short, unless someone can describe variations in weaving techniques (and in the absence of distinctive decorative motifs, like the Chinese tiger face), I am increasingly of the opinion that it would be very difficult (if not impossible) to distinguish the rattan shields from China, Vietnam, Korea, and possibly other Asian countries.

19th October 2006, 10:33 PM	#5
Nick Wardigo Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USA Posts: 54	Hello Zelmoxis, You sound very certain that this is Vietnamese and not Chinese. Do you know how to tell the two apart? Are you using a source other than the Barbier-Mueller book or the Huard and Durand book? Honestly, up until now, I had thought the two shield designs to be identical. But, if you can distinguish them by weaving pattern or some other way, I REALLY want to know. I collect Vietnamese arms myself, and such information would be invaluable to me. Just to give you an idea of my problem, I'm attaching a line drawing from the Chinese military manual, LIEN PING SHIH CHI, written and illustrated in 1571 (and reproduced in Osprey Military's, MEN-AT-ARMS SERIES, LATE IMPERIAL CHINESE ARMIES, 1520-1840). As you can see, it looks just like Bill's shield, or for that matter, any other large, round rattan shield. Anyway, I hope you can help. Attached Images

20th October 2006, 06:37 AM	#6
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	Chinese Sorry I'm a bit late to the discussion, but when LouieBlades posted a link to an eBay sale, I checked it and the shield did ring a bell. I'm convinced that the rattan shield that sold on eBay was not African as described, but a Chinese buckler called a "tengpai", in use until well into the 19th cent. The shape, manner of weaving, and the attachments for grasping attached to the concave back-side are typical. Most people would expect to see the painted "tiger face" motif that would immediately tip them off that it is Chinese, but I have encountered variations which include Chinese characters done with a brush in black paint, and others which (like this one) are perfectly plain. In the 1990s I had the chance to examine two plain ones in a large collection of Chinese arms in London; from their provenance, they were definitely not of African or Philippine origin. Practically every tengpai I have seen has a smooth, shallow domed profile, although my colleague, Scott Rodell, has seen a conical example as depicted in the woodblock illustration that Nick Wardigo has so kindly posted. Some tengpai have round metal bosses in the center (similar in concept to those seen on Ottoman shields). What strikes me as different about Bill's example which is the subject of this thread are: 1. The little "nipple" in the center 2. The pair of identical wood handgrips, in lieu of the usual single handgrip plus a wicker arm-loop. These features merit further study and investigation. All in all, it's an interesting piece, and thanks to Bill for sharing it with us.

21st October 2006, 05:18 PM	#7
Nick Wardigo Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USA Posts: 54	I also wanted to mention that the Koreans used similar shields. I'm posting drawings from the recent translation of the Muye Dobo Tongji, the Korean military manual originally commissioned in 1790 by King Jungjo. Six of the fighting systems, including shield fighting, were based on an older Korean manual, the Muye Jebo, published shortly after 1598. This, in turn, was based upon a Ming (Chinese) military manual (I believe the same one that the drawing above comes from; the author's name is similar ["Ch'i Chi-kuang" in the Osprey book; "Chuk Kye-kwang" in the Muye Dobo Tongji]). My point is, rattan shield-fighting was prevalent in China, Vietnam, and Korea as early as the 16th century (probably much earlier), still widely used in 1790 (at least enough to warrant prominent mention in a Korean military manual), and existed at least until the end of the nineteenth century. There was clearly a sharing of shield-fighting techniques across borders, and I would expect also a sharing of shield-making techniques, if not the shields themselves. In short, unless someone can describe variations in weaving techniques (and in the absence of distinctive decorative motifs, like the Chinese tiger face), I am increasingly of the opinion that it would be very difficult (if not impossible) to distinguish the rattan shields from China, Vietnam, Korea, and possibly other Asian countries. Attached Images

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16th October 2006, 05:41 PM	#2
Nick Wardigo Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USA Posts: 54	I'm of the opinion that this shield is likely Chinese. I've seen maybe a dozen Chinese shields over the years, and this one fits the general size, shape, composition, and weaving. The handles are a little odd, but it isn't anything that sends up a red flag to me. Having said that, Ben is correct, the Barbier-Mueller book does identify a similar shield as Vietnamese. Also, a line drawing of a very similar shield shows up in Huard and Durand's book, VIET NAM CIVILIZATION AND CULTURE (the English translation of, CONNAISSANCE DU VIETNAM). That the Vietnamese and Chinese use similar (or identical) rattan shields is hardly surprising. The materials are readily available in that part of the world, and the resulting product is light and able to withstand a sword blow. Shields are not my area of expertise, but I would guess that, without specific provenance, it is impossible to tell the difference between Chinese and Vietnamese rattan shields (unless the shield is painted with the telltale tiger face, which is a Chinese affectation). All things being equal, I would say Chinese is the best guess because, statistically, I would expect more of these shields to be made in China. Having said all that, I am not discounting the possibility of a Moro origin. Again, rattan is rattan, and any culture capable of making a rattan basket is certainly capable of making a rattan shield. The problem is, I have never seen a rattan shield attributed to any of the Moro peoples. The only Moro shields I've seen have been the round, wooden ones of various sizes. Bill, do you have any photographic evidence that the Moros used rattan shields? Or, possibly, cite a written example? I have a passing curiousity about these things, and I'd appreciate any information you can provide. Thanks, Nick

17th October 2006, 09:23 AM	#3
Bill M Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Georgia Posts: 1,599	I have a shield book and a book on basketry of the Luzon on the way. I am hoping that these will provide more information. Will let you know when they arrive. Thanks Ben for your help! I am researching two areas, the basketry pattern as possibly being Luzon and the shape of the handles. These look like handles on many other Moro shields. There is not a lot else to go on. I suspect it is a Moro "economy" shield. Unusual in that it seems quite old. Rare in that not a lot of rattan shields have survived intact. Still curious about the hole in the center. Could this have once held some kind of boss? Or wooden plug? Any other ideas? Certainly could be another culture!

18th October 2006, 02:45 AM	#4
zalmoxis Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: GA USA Posts: 76	Hi it is a Vietnamese shield and more rare than the Moro shields.