Keris for comment

kai · 2nd October 2006, 07:54 AM

What a waste of wood!

Regards,
Kai

A. G. Maisey · 2nd October 2006, 09:20 AM

I thank you, Lew, and the seller for the opportunity to comment in a public Forum on this item.

Regretably, the keris is a very specialised field of study and collecting. I have now been involved in this study for over 50 years, but I doubt that anything like this period of time would be required for somebody with even the most rudimentary knowledge of the keris to recognise exactly what we are looking at in respect of the item of which you have posted a picture.

I cannot in good conscience call this item a keris.
It is a keris-like object.
It is the type of thing that is sold to tourists as a souvenir of Bali.
It has the general form of a keris, but I believe the blade will be found to have been formed by being partially cut and partially forged from a piece of homogenous steel, the imitation pamor pattern has almost certainly been achieved by partially masking the blade with wax and then staining the exposed steel, the wax then being removed with boiling water.

The scabbard and handle appear to be of sono wood, and the quality of the carving is abysmal.This carving is the sort of thing that is done by young children who are just beginning to learn the craft.

This object cannot be dignified by calling it a keris.

It is a keris-like souvenir.

As a memento of a holiday in Bali, or as an ornament on the wall behind a bar, it has worth. As an item in a collection of keris or eastern edged weapons it has no place or value at all.

Pusaka · 2nd October 2006, 01:47 PM

Hmmm…….The force is strong in this one

David · 2nd October 2006, 02:15 PM

LOL!!!

Lew, i think i'm a bit like you. Sometimes when i contact these guys they actually are thankful because they didn't really know any better. Sometimes you get a guy like this, who really does know but wants to pretend otherwise. I actually had a rather detailed back and forth with this guy over this very keris the LAST time he tried to sell this piece of crap. He basically assured me it was not only the real deal, but a very powerful JAVANESE keris according to his own knowledgeable Javanese friends. So powerful that when he took it out to show them the guy's wife had to leave the room.

He told me that he would bet me $4000 (to the charity of my choice) if i was correct, but of course he is not willing to put it to the test. I challenged him to post it here and i think it is funny that it found it's way here afterall.

Yes, i think "keris-like object" desribes this item best. To actually call it a keris is an insult to a great art and culture.

Alam Shah · 2nd October 2006, 03:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

LOL!!!

... He basically assured me it was not only the real deal, but a very powerful JAVANESE keris according to his own knowledgeable Javanese friends. So powerful that when he took it out to show them the guy's wife had to leave the room.

Probably the wiser wife was thinking... what a piece of crap...

[QUOTE=David]He told me that he would bet me $4000 (to the charity of my choice) if i was correct, but of course he is not willing to put it to the test. I challenged him to post it here and i think it is funny that it found it's way here afterall.

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Yes, i think "keris-like object" desribes this item best.

A nicer and polite way of describing the item.

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

To actually call it a keris is an insult to a great art and culture.

Precisely. If this is the quality of keris, I guess we'll be off collecting other stuffs.

Fortunately, it is not. So here we are commenting and discussing, as usual.

Lew · 2nd October 2006, 06:45 PM

Hi Guys

I think the seller must either be delusional,totally gullable or just down right full of roo dung or maybe this really what he sees when he looks his keris

They are almost identical you know

I will be emailing a link to the seller so dave I think he had better get his check book ready I know a few good charities he can send the money to

Btw Dave you must be the person who he is talking about in this emal.

For some inexplicable reason the posting of this auction seems to have attracted a stream of comments which would be laughable if they weren't so pathetic. (I'm guessing that you are either a colleague or perhaps the same person as some imbecile who keeps telling me that this 40+ year old authenticated keris is a fake, but who when challenged to put his money where his mouth is died like a pricked balloon). You have my permission to post a picture of this item wherever you wish. In the meantime, a local collector who DOES know what he is talking about is close to consummating purchase of this excellent item.

Lew

David · 2nd October 2006, 08:14 PM

Yeah Lew, i am afraid i would be that very same "imbecile"

I should have taken hiom up on his wager, but i figured it was a waste of time and he would never pay in the end.
In his last post to me he writes:
You may recall that I made the following offer to you:
When the keris was still within my possession, I would send the physical item (at my expense) to any acknowledged expert, provided we both posted a bond (payable to charity) to ensure I wasn't wasting my time. You (predictably) chickened out, but now you want me to go and look at some blog that is no doubt heavily loaded with your friends and relations. You should ask yourself who am I more likely to believe - a native Indonesian who has a deep understanding of the keris and a knowledgeable collector, or some peanut who has read one or two books and who thinks a forged pattern is paint!! If you appraise yourself honestly you will realise that you have heavily negative credibility.

Alan, i think the "peanut" he is referring to is you.

2nd October 2006, 06:45 PM	#6
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Hi Guys I think the seller must either be delusional,totally gullable or just down right full of roo dung or maybe this really what he sees when he looks his keris They are almost identical you know I will be emailing a link to the seller so dave I think he had better get his check book ready I know a few good charities he can send the money to Btw Dave you must be the person who he is talking about in this emal. For some inexplicable reason the posting of this auction seems to have attracted a stream of comments which would be laughable if they weren't so pathetic. (I'm guessing that you are either a colleague or perhaps the same person as some imbecile who keeps telling me that this 40+ year old authenticated keris is a fake, but who when challenged to put his money where his mouth is died like a pricked balloon). You have my permission to post a picture of this item wherever you wish. In the meantime, a local collector who DOES know what he is talking about is close to consummating purchase of this excellent item. Lew Attached Images Last edited by David; 2nd October 2006 at 08:17 PM. Reason: Best to keep identities out of this i think

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2nd October 2006, 07:54 AM	#1
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,255	What a waste of wood! Regards, Kai

2nd October 2006, 09:20 AM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	I thank you, Lew, and the seller for the opportunity to comment in a public Forum on this item. Regretably, the keris is a very specialised field of study and collecting. I have now been involved in this study for over 50 years, but I doubt that anything like this period of time would be required for somebody with even the most rudimentary knowledge of the keris to recognise exactly what we are looking at in respect of the item of which you have posted a picture. I cannot in good conscience call this item a keris. It is a keris-like object. It is the type of thing that is sold to tourists as a souvenir of Bali. It has the general form of a keris, but I believe the blade will be found to have been formed by being partially cut and partially forged from a piece of homogenous steel, the imitation pamor pattern has almost certainly been achieved by partially masking the blade with wax and then staining the exposed steel, the wax then being removed with boiling water. The scabbard and handle appear to be of sono wood, and the quality of the carving is abysmal.This carving is the sort of thing that is done by young children who are just beginning to learn the craft. This object cannot be dignified by calling it a keris. It is a keris-like souvenir. As a memento of a holiday in Bali, or as an ornament on the wall behind a bar, it has worth. As an item in a collection of keris or eastern edged weapons it has no place or value at all.

2nd October 2006, 01:47 PM	#3
Pusaka Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 341	Hmmm…….The force is strong in this one

2nd October 2006, 02:15 PM	#4
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,218	LOL!!! Lew, i think i'm a bit like you. Sometimes when i contact these guys they actually are thankful because they didn't really know any better. Sometimes you get a guy like this, who really does know but wants to pretend otherwise. I actually had a rather detailed back and forth with this guy over this very keris the LAST time he tried to sell this piece of crap. He basically assured me it was not only the real deal, but a very powerful JAVANESE keris according to his own knowledgeable Javanese friends. So powerful that when he took it out to show them the guy's wife had to leave the room. He told me that he would bet me $4000 (to the charity of my choice) if i was correct, but of course he is not willing to put it to the test. I challenged him to post it here and i think it is funny that it found it's way here afterall. Yes, i think "keris-like object" desribes this item best. To actually call it a keris is an insult to a great art and culture.

2nd October 2006, 08:14 PM	#7
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,218	Yeah Lew, i am afraid i would be that very same "imbecile" I should have taken hiom up on his wager, but i figured it was a waste of time and he would never pay in the end. In his last post to me he writes: You may recall that I made the following offer to you: When the keris was still within my possession, I would send the physical item (at my expense) to any acknowledged expert, provided we both posted a bond (payable to charity) to ensure I wasn't wasting my time. You (predictably) chickened out, but now you want me to go and look at some blog that is no doubt heavily loaded with your friends and relations. You should ask yourself who am I more likely to believe - a native Indonesian who has a deep understanding of the keris and a knowledgeable collector, or some peanut who has read one or two books and who thinks a forged pattern is paint!! If you appraise yourself honestly you will realise that you have heavily negative credibility. Alan, i think the "peanut" he is referring to is you.