Fighting with keris

[Georgia]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

I could probably dig up Jerzy's results if they interest you. Any sort of luck I could probably put my hand right on them. That would allow you to assess the relevance or otherwise of occurrence of natural arsenic in the material.

That'd be great if you could, I'd be very interested.

[David]

Thanks for you response and clarification of your methods Georgia. I agree with both you and Alan that museum workers should certainly be made aware of these findings. Considering the condition of these blades prudence would be wise even if any danger is unlikely. I am glad these clarification have been made because your original statement that "it (arsenic) is certainly present in sufficient amounts to cause adverse health effects" seemed unnecessarily alarmist to this group of collectors who in all probability maintain their collections in much better condition than the museum seems to do. You would find no surface residue on the keris in my collection (and certainly no white powdery substance) and though there may be something hiding in the crevaces of the gonjo it seems highly unlikely that i am at risk of ingesting any of the substance or even absorbing it through the skin. I hope you understand that i also am not discounting your research which is indeed very interesting and valuable, but i am trying to put this information into perspective for the audience you are addressing on this forum. Of course, if there are any paranoid collectors out there who want to now get rid of their collection cheap i would be happy to help them out. I look foward to hearing more about your findings when your project is completed.

[RobT]

Hi All,
Stone's description of warding with a sheath or keris is exactly the same technique that is used with Okinawan sai. The sai, which resemble European poingards save that they have no edge or point, are used in pairs. The large quillons serve to catch sword blades and also to revolve the weapon so that it can be held either blade or pommel out. If held pommel out, the blade acts as a guard for the forearm (the blade should be long enough to extend about 1" past the elbow) and the pommel can be used to strike a blow. Stone, on pg 422 item #17, lists a mace (that is exactly like an Okinawan sai) as Chinese. If this attribution is correct, then perhaps the Indonesian method that Stone reported has its roots in some form of Chinese martial arts.
On a completely different note: Is there any possibility that amok has its roots in the Hindu weapon classification of mukta/amukta?
Sincerely,
RobT

[zartane]

salam to all,

I'm not an expert on types of keris, etc but i hv been activley involved in martial arts for the past ten years especially silats from peninsular malaysia and a few from javanese style .. Had to give my thoughts of view regarding the main topic or as i might say 'questions' raised by Mr. Bram because the replies had been "off-topic".. My answers will be only based on what my guru's taught me and none of my own opinion so, don't ask me for historical facts..

Mr. Bram's brought up the fact that keris is not used for fighting or combat in Jawa but silats in Malaysia, it is the main weapon taught for fighting. He then asked for explaination on when did the keris in Jawa ceased to be used in normal fighting? >> here goes>> my answer would be, the Javanese lost their trust in keris as a main weapon for fighting since Majapahit's warrior named Tameng Sari died in a duel with Hang Tuah from Malacca. Taming Sari was so great at that time in the Jawa land, thus the defeat of Taming Sari (which was stabbed by his own keris) made a big impact for the whole of indonesia and ceased their trust on keris as a responsible weapon to defend themselves..

Second question, about the hilt.. both ways (Malay and Javanese) of attaching the hilt to the keris is different, one is horizontal and the other paralel with the blade. It is true that the Malay way of holding the hilt (like holding a gun) will hold the blade in a position that would readily be able to slip between ribs but bare in mind that you cannot hold the hilt the same way for Javanese kerises!! There is a different way of holding the Javanese keris which will also make the blade parallel and readily able to slip between ribs.. i have two pictures for example and as you can see, both blades are positioned the same, just the hand gripping way is different..

I could see that someone has already showed a picture of gripping the Javanese keris but seems quiet wrong to me as it not firm and your grip has to be straight along with your arm, just like punching, or you can't even thrust a banana tree with that style of gripping. AND you would be easily disarmed just by being kicked on the wrist..

Some replies also questioned that the Javanese slip their keris at the back, while malays slip it on their front. It is not the question of which one is practically logic for fast drawing their weapon or sticking the keris at the front is easier to pull out in a combat, but there is a greater reason to that!
Most of the pencak in Javanese Style prefer very low stance pattern (kuda-kuda). While you are performing bunga or langkah in a very low manner, it is impossible to slip a keris into your belt in front of your body (especially long ones!!) that is why they slip it at the back.. Unlike silat styles from Malaysia which uses higher stance in their silat form, it is still comfortable to slip the keris infront..

Not to mention, holding the keris Javanese style is more efficient to make a thrust from a lower position than holding a malay keris the malay way. And vice versa, it is more devastating to hold a malay keris the malay way if using a higher stance than using a Javanese keris. That is why it is important to choose the right type of keris with the right type of "lok" when fighting your opponent.

And there is a post that mentioned holding a keris looks familiar as holding a "sai" or "tcabang" in Indonesia or "tekpi" in malaysia.. believe me, they are not the same, as i also master the movement of "sai's"..

Thanks.

[David]

Thanks for your post Zartane. Can't say that i can find enough credence in your idea (related from your teacher) that the Javanese stopped using the keris as a weapon due to Tameng Sari's loss to Hang Tuah. First of all, while i am sure that these were truly historical characters, i believe that their "history" is more legend than truth. Sort of like saying George Washington gave up using the hatchet after his embarassing encounter with the cherry tree. Secondly, if this line of thinking was the case it would seem odd to me that the Javanese would continue to so greatly venerate the weapon that failed their greatest hero.
I see very little difference with the photo example you present as to how to hold a Javanese keris with the one Alan Maisey presented. You show a side view, Alan shows top and bottom. Yes, Alan shows a bend in the wrist which you probably would not have during use, but what he was trying to show us was the grip itself which is essentially the same as yours.I suspect that Alan may have been photographing his own hand here which would make it a little difficult to keep the wrist in proper position. Either way, his grip seems no less firm than your example.

[Rick]

Continuing along these lines of grip ; I would be very interested in seeing the way in which the keris scabbard would be gripped for use as a left hand parrying device .

[Alam Shah]

Originally Posted by Rick

Continuing along these lines of grip ; I would be very interested in seeing the way in which the keris scabbard would be gripped for use as a left hand parrying device .

In some Peninsular Malay silat form, the scabbard (sarung) serves a few purpose. To parry as well as a secondary assault tool. It is held with the scabbard facing the opponent, 2 fingers and the thumb holding the shaft (batang) of the scabbard, while the other 2 fingers support the cross-piece (sampir) from behind. In a single block, the sampir tips can be used to target the softer part of the opponent or used as a distraction while the blade in the other hand, move into a striking position.

[BluErf]

Originally Posted by David

Sort of like saying George Washington gave up using the hatchet after his embarassing encounter with the cherry tree.

Hey, wasn't this G.W. and the cherry tree tale a fallacy??

[David]

Originally Posted by BluErf

Hey, wasn't this G.W. and the cherry tree tale a fallacy??

Yes, Kai Wee, that would be an affirmative. That doesn't mean that i am suggesting that this famous duel didn't take place. It may have, it may not have. It may have happened, but not quite as it is told today. Such is the stuff of legends. My point is that it would be difficult to base any academic conclusion on it.

[Rick]

Originally Posted by BluErf

Hey, wasn't this G.W. and the cherry tree tale a fallacy??

Maybe ....... but he did throw a silver dollar across the Potomac river ; I swear !!

[Alam Shah]

Here's another variation of holding a huge Sumatran keris.
Note: Left-hander... right hand holding the camera.


Personal preferred holding technique...

[David]

Originally Posted by zartane

my answer would be, the Javanese lost their trust in keris as a main weapon for fighting since Majapahit's warrior named Tameng Sari died in a duel with Hang Tuah from Malacca. Taming Sari was so great at that time in the Jawa land, thus the defeat of Taming Sari (which was stabbed by his own keris) made a big impact for the whole of indonesia and ceased their trust on keris as a responsible weapon to defend themselves..

I do have a question in regards to this legend. In my internet research (which can, of course be limited) the only reference i have been able to locate of Taming Sari being a person who dueled with Hang Tuah is fro a silat website:
http://www.silat.f9.co.uk/hangtuahintro.htm
There are, however, countless references to Taming Sari as being Hang Tuah's keris (the stories i am more familar with). Is this a legitimate variation on the legends or merely a modern silat misreading of the legends?
Again, this is the problem with using these legends to reach any academic conclusions on the actual origins and uses of the keris.

[A. G. Maisey]

No David, I did not take that photo myself, my wife took it, and the bend in the wrist is to allow her get the pic.

I did these pics three times. I tried to get one of my sons who has Asian type hands, to hold the keris while I took the photo, but although it looked OK when I took the pics, when I got home and processed it, he had not got it quite right so I held the keris while my wife took the pics.

The previously published photos of this grip had one of my sons holding it, and it looks a lot more convincing.

Donn Draeger spent his life researching the way in which South East Asian weapons were actually used. If anybody was expert on this, then I think that perhaps Donn F. Draeger was that man. His remarks on the way in which a keris was used, when it was still an everyday weapon are interesting. He maintained that because the keris in Jawa had not been used as a common weapon for many, many years, and that since no documentation of methods of use existed, it simply was not possible for somebody living at the present time to truly know how the keris was held and used in Jawa when every man carried one as a weapon.

I cannot comment on the practicality or otherwise of the grip that I have shown, for use in silat applications.

I am not a silat practitioner, I have seen demonstrations, and I find it an admirable, athletic, and beautiful form of martial art which seems to require a very high degree of flexibility and extremely fast reflexes.

What I can comment on is the person who taught me this way to hold a keris.

This gentleman was a neighbour in Solo almost 40 years ago. He had worked as a "waste disposal contractor" during the period from the time the Japanese occupied Jawa until into at least the 1950's. His teachers were the sons and grandsons of the overseers and enforcers who were used by the Dutch. He was not a pencak silat teacher, he was a man who used elements of silat, kun tao, and other arts as his professional stock in trade. His objective was to avoid fights. He did not get paid for fighting. He did get paid for getting rid of the waste he been paid to get rid of. His preferred tool of trade was not a keris, but he had used a keris in his work. The way in which he taught me to hold a keris was the way in which he had been taught to hold a keris.

Perhaps the grip that I have shown photos of would be totally useless for pencak silat situations. I do not know, and have no foundation upon which to offer a comment. But this grip was used by one man at least who earnt his living with it, and by ensuring that others did not.

Although I cannot vouch personally for the efectiveness or otherwise of this grip, I can say that it is a very firm grip, because it effectively locks the blade into three pressure points in the hand:- the pinch between forefinger and thumb, and the first joint of the forefinger locked down onto the top of the gonjo.

I would suggest that if this grip is not applicable to use in pencak silat, then the obvious solution is not to use it.

But as to whether it was used in a practical situation or not, well, theoretically bumble bees cannot fly.

[Pusaka]

Here is a short clip about Pendekar Steven Benitez, the only real western Pendekar to my knowlage http://www.goldenlightstudios.com/gl...ari3=video_tfm

[zartane]

Originally Posted by David

I do have a question in regards to this legend. In my internet research (which can, of course be limited) the only reference i have been able to locate of Taming Sari being a person who dueled with Hang Tuah is fro a silat website:
http://www.silat.f9.co.uk/hangtuahintro.htm
There are, however, countless references to Taming Sari as being Hang Tuah's keris (the stories i am more familar with). Is this a legitimate variation on the legends or merely a modern silat misreading of the legends?
Again, this is the problem with using these legends to reach any academic conclusions on the actual origins and uses of the keris.

well, here goes the legend.. actually Taming Sari is a name of the great majapahit's warrior. And the keris itself has a long story to it.. to make it short, this keris had a curse on it " whom ever declaire that the keris is thier's (the owner), the blade will kill it's owner".. so when hang tuah could not defeat taming sari in the duel, he asked taming sari who's keris he is using.. and fortunateley, taming sari replied "it's mine" thus taming sari made a wrong move and he was killed by his own blade. then, hang tuah brought the keris back with him.

when hang tuah came back to melaka, each and every time someone asked who's keris is it? he would reply "it's tameng sari's keris" which then led to the name taming sari as a keris..

i know this is just a legend or myth as you all may say it, but i'm just telling this story just for the pleasure of sharing it.. not for the sake of stating it as a fact! so, there is no need to question my post as un"academic"..

[David]

Originally Posted by zartane

i know this is just a legend or myth as you all may say it, but i'm just telling this story just for the pleasure of sharing it.. not for the sake of stating it as a fact! so, there is no need to question my post as un"academic"..

Zartane, don't get me wrong, i enjoy a good story as well...just for the pleasure of it. However, when you first brought this story to this thread you clearly were using it as a possible reason for a historical reality and not telling it as one of the many legends based on this story, but as a truth:
"my answer would be, the Javanese lost their trust in keris as a main weapon for fighting since Majapahit's warrior named Tameng Sari died in a duel with Hang Tuah from Malacca. Taming Sari was so great at that time in the Jawa land, thus the defeat of Taming Sari (which was stabbed by his own keris) made a big impact for the whole of indonesia and ceased their trust on keris as a responsible weapon to defend themselves.."

That was my only issue, that stories like these should not be used to make a case for academic questions. I am still quite interested in this legend and i am still curious if your telling of the legend is particular to silat teachings since i have not hear this telling from any other source.

[Kiai Carita]

Originally Posted by zartane

well, here goes the legend.. actually Taming Sari is a name of the great majapahit's warrior. And the keris itself has a long story to it.. to make it short, this keris had a curse on it " whom ever declaire that the keris is thier's (the owner), the blade will kill it's owner".. so when hang tuah could not defeat taming sari in the duel, he asked taming sari who's keris he is using.. and fortunateley, taming sari replied "it's mine" thus taming sari made a wrong move and he was killed by his own blade. then, hang tuah brought the keris back with him.

when hang tuah came back to melaka, each and every time someone asked who's keris is it? he would reply "it's tameng sari's keris" which then led to the name taming sari as a keris..

i know this is just a legend or myth as you all may say it, but i'm just telling this story just for the pleasure of sharing it.. not for the sake of stating it as a fact! so, there is no need to question my post as un"academic"..

Interesting legend... in Jawa itself there is no story of either a man or a keris called Taming Sari, and also the power in Jawa at the time of Malaka would have been Demak rather than Majapahit, would it not?

Notes from the Xeng He armada and olso from early Portugese adventurers tell about keris and tombak fighting, so it might be safe to assume that at that time keris fighting was normal. Wayang wong in Sriwedari also depicts keris fighting so there must have been some form of it some time. Just at the end of Demak, Arya Penangsang famousely kills himself by mistake with his own keris and Sutawijaya, founder of Mataram, is said to be so impressed by the valour of his enemy who had hisa stomach cut open and his intestines hanging over his keris that he started a tradition to put wreaths of jasmine on the handle of a groom's keris.

Sultan Agung gave kinatah Gajah-Singa to commemorate the defeat of the Bupati Pati by his forces and is also credited with creating the character Gendring Caluring (Buta Cakil) in wayang kulit - who inevitably gets killed by his own keris at the hands of Arjuna.

I have a feeling that this is the time we should look at to find why and when the Jawa keris stopped being imagined to be used in fighting. Sultan Agung then went on to attempt to sack Batavia but lost twice.

Pak Boedhi mentioned back, that in Yogyakarta kraton most keris are fixed to the handle using resin (dijabung) ... and also the small keris handle fits more snugly in the hand if one holds the keris between the thumb and forefinger, pinching the blumbangan. True, the larger Surakarta ukiran still alows this grip but it doesn't feel as right. With this grip I feel the keris is live and it does fit in to silat moves easily like a long feather of a crane or eagle.

Thank you all for the discussion and to those of you who are Muslim, selamat hari raya Idul Fitri, mohon ma'af lahir dan batin.

Bram.