weaponrys uses.......

[David]

Originally Posted by ausjulius

yeah the moro kris is rather solid.. i dont see any failings with this,

but all the indonesian kris knives ive seen ,, one could snap the blade form the handle without a problem,, they are not stronger than a butter knife .. or one of those small german nicker knives form barvaria...... the very thin stick tang glued into a off set handle with a wavy blade , it all makes alot of stress on that little tang, aspecialy the un supported join od the tang ot the blade where the little furrel is, i wouldnt trus it for stabbing to save my life....

id sepculate they were purely for costume?? as in reality a big peice of wood or a stick would make a better weapon :P
now , that said , they shure look great.......


..as a side note about the kris knives,,,,, how old are they???imguessing they appeared in the last 200-300 years , as we know them today?? and spread into indonesia from the moros??
as i see the percursor of the indonesian kris seems to have been stright bladed and more as a long slightly leaf shaped blade???
dont realy no a massive amount about this topic.. so im only guessing

Well, you obviously haven't seen all that many keris blades.
I don't want to get too far into the conversation here because i would love to lure you over to the keris forum for further discussion, but keris were made for many diferent purposes. Some were indeed never meant to be put to physical use, but i also have quite a few that i could easily punch a hole in a car hood with. When used properly it can be a very effective and deadly weapon.
The keris as it appears today first appeared in Jawa in the 14th century by conservative estimates. That would make the form at least 700 years old.
BTW, only about a third of all keris blades are the wavy type. Straight ones have always been much more common.

[tom hyle]

I agree with David on the kris, and one thing that seems clear about the kris (in my opinion a not merely effective but very nasty weapon) is that its origins and early uses are shrouded in mystery and controversy. Most you see today are either old and suffering (IMHO it's damage to be suffered) from over"wash"ing or made in imitation of such, while, since the current use is purely ceremonial (or nearly so), types and forms ineffectual in combat are modernly promulgated.
This is a worldwide phenomenon; edged weapons are often (though incorrectly IMHO) viewed as obsolete, and not made to using standards; a 20th C. USMC sabre, while nothing to want stabbed with, is a smallswordish and arguably ineffective weapon; this in no way argues against the deadliness or strenght of "real" sabres meant for cutting.
Certainly there have always been ceremonial/display/etc. weapons, but my estimate is maybe 1/4 of those modernly so accused. One cannot properly answer this issue on a broad scale, but only type-by-type or even piece-by-piece, and some understanding of the culture, religion, and combat of the piece's native culture is very beneficial in such analyses.
For whatever it's worth, I'm considered a reasonably large man (5'8" 200+ lb.) and having worked as a laborer and craftsman have reasonably well-developed hands (I call the left one "the clamp"). I find most tulwars quite possible to hold and use, and others nearly so. Some are even quite comfortable to me, and I think that men of my size are not common among populations with low protein intake in youth (maybe a larger factor than genetyics in the size varience across history, so it's said.). I think the factor is largely that Europeans (etc.) do not understand how a tulwar is used; if you snap/extend your wrist the disc is most uncomfortable, but if instead of chopping you slash, no problem. Many peoples seem to have favoured hilts that tightly gripped the hand, presumeably to improve the hold.

[David]

Hi Tom! Nice to see you are still around.
I completely agree with your thought that most Westerners just don't understand the proper why to both hold and use some of these weapons. This is especially true of the keris.