Kindjal

The Double D · 15th August 2006, 06:01 AM

Gent's, I don't mean to be rude, but could we get back to kindjals.

Although I guess the drift of the current discussion shows why there is such a diversity in kindjals.

The black kindjal I posted back up thread has two fuller. One reference I saw said kindjals have one fuller. Is this true?

ausjulius · 15th August 2006, 12:10 PM

hi , they have many ,, on or 50 , or 3 on one side and one on the other , depends on how the smith felt at the time

,
looks to be a dagger of sorts , not a knidjal , more like iran?? althoug ive seen ones like that fomr turky, but without the preforations.

rivkin , sorry didnt finish my email,,,,,
thing is here ther eis somany national groups , and many of these national groups didnt exsist as they are 400 years ago,, and then 1000 years ago there was other groups ,, and others and such , there has never beed a stabil period,, greater albania was about the height of it,,
the thing is people here have always lived in clans or tribes,, and basicly the social system was not so structured as to allow large settelments to last long , hence poor documentation and little or not local records, also the constant change or religion , anguage,, and population dosnt allow for muh record keeping ,
also because of the clan nature of the society the population can quickly change,, i one clan defeats another , the others was many times eradicated compleatly ,, the dwellings destroyed or captured,, and because of the small size od the clans history of this is poorly recorded, also 75 years of communisim and the 100 or so years of russian control .. combined with an influx of moslem influince have affected local tradition and language greatly ,
also because of the lack of much localy written records and the lack of much interest from outsiders history is pretty patchy,

and dure to the fact that these societies never had much of a hiracial system there as few people recording the history..

dont know how much iran spends on such things, but they have many sources from which to glean information , and there is maybe 40milion iranians
living in iran,, so thats alot more than say 130000 lak.. or 35000 nogai
and even then these groups are seperated by clans and dialect differences, so there is maybe 10 dialects out of 130000 people , ,
......

Andrew · 15th August 2006, 04:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Double D

Gent's, I don't mean to be rude, but could we get back to kindjals?

I agree completely, DD. Thank you.

Gentlemen, I know certain topics easily lead to socio-political discussions, but let's remain sensitive to how easily such discussions can cause a thread to veer sharply off-topic into unpleasant territory. Thanks.

Kubur · 13th January 2015, 03:29 PM

Hi I was surprised to see that

Kindjal means Khanjar in Russian!

Kin-jal
Kan-jar

In fact they are all Daggers!!

It's like Kilij (Turkish) = Pala (Greeck) = Shamshir (Persian) = Saif (Arabic)
= sword

sorry my comment is probably very stupid...

VANDOO · 13th January 2015, 07:09 PM

COMMENTS HERE ARE SELDOM STUPID, HUMOROUS AND SILLY AT TIMES BUT NOT STUPID. TO SOME A COMMENT MAY BE OBVIOUS AND A WELL KNOWN FACT OR FALLACY BUT TO OTHERS IT MAY BE NEW INFORMATION. WHILE WE OFTEN COVER THE SAME GROUND HERE ITS STILL WORTH IT AS WE MAY COME ACROSS NEW INFORMATION AT SOME POINT.

Sancar · 13th January 2015, 07:31 PM

I have a different theory(though not set in stone) about the origin of "kindjal" or qama; I believe this particular form of shrot sword/dagger to come from Iran and Central Asia and evolved from the Scythian short sword akinakes.

What do you guys think?

Oliver Pinchot · 15th January 2015, 06:45 PM

There was a substantial, in many cases overwhelming, Arab military presence in Western Asia by the late 8th century. This included wars with Byzantium and several of the Caucasian kingdoms. One of the words which was adopted from Arabic was khanjar: rendered kindjal in Russian and khanjul in Armenian. There were probably distinct characteristics to the weapon itself which accompanied this adoption, such as its form or mode of wear. In Russian, kindjal means generically, a dagger.

Kindjal is an odd term to use for the well-known Caucasian dagger, one which was applied by Imperial Russian soldiers serving in the Crimea and Caucasus and later by arms specialists. It was adopted thereafter by collectors who came in contact with it through Russian sources. Local groups did not use the word "kindjal" until after the Caucasian Wars. Each culture has at least one name of its own; Adighea and Georgian, among others, have a number of terms, each relative to the characteristics of the weapon.

One of these terms in Adighea is kama. Kama is a loan-word from Ottoman قامه, (kama in modern Turkish) meaning a wedge or tapering double-edged blade*. Together with the term, this form of dagger was introduced via Black Sea trade to the Adighea-speaking groups we know as Circassians. It spread very quickly through the rest of the Caucasus, assuming subtle but distinct regional variations in form and embellishment. (The distinctive Circassian tunic and cavalry saber, called by the Russian military, cherkesska and shashka but actually tse and shash'huwa in Adighea, were also adopted throughout the Caucasus during the 19th century; again, with regional distinctions.)

(*The Ottoman term قامه can be found here: https://archive.org/stream/Dictionna...up/search/kama )

The terms kilic, shamshir and seyf (or saif) refer generically to a "sword" in Turkish, Persian and Arabic, however pala, a Turkish word, was used to refer specifically to the curved and back-edged saber we think of as characteristically Ottoman from at least the 18th century. Interestingly, the Turkish word for a straight-bladed broadsword or thrusting sword (an estoc or tuck, in English) is meç (metch,) a cognate with the Russian word меч(mietch) and by extension, the Finnish term, miekka.

Sancar · 16th January 2015, 02:04 AM

Actually "meç" is a loan word from either French or Hungarian I believe. But it is used in Turkish to mean "narrow straight double edged blade" as early as 1400s.

"Pala" is a very generic term that can mean very different things in historical usage varying from a large gypsy knife( Çingene palası) to even a longer yataghan. Today, people tend to use it for late period ottoman kilij which I find very problematic terminologically.

"Kama" is a Turkish term specifically for a straight double edged pointy, triangular, or tapering double edged blade or wedge. It is a very old word. You can find it even in oldest Turkish texts and dictionaries.

13th January 2015, 03:29 PM	#4
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	kin jal khan jar Hi I was surprised to see that Kindjal means Khanjar in Russian! Kin-jal Kan-jar In fact they are all Daggers!! It's like Kilij (Turkish) = Pala (Greeck) = Shamshir (Persian) = Saif (Arabic) = sword sorry my comment is probably very stupid...

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15th August 2006, 06:01 AM	#1
The Double D Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: On the banks of Cut Bank Creek, Montana Posts: 189	Gent's, I don't mean to be rude, but could we get back to kindjals. Although I guess the drift of the current discussion shows why there is such a diversity in kindjals. The black kindjal I posted back up thread has two fuller. One reference I saw said kindjals have one fuller. Is this true?

15th August 2006, 12:10 PM	#2
ausjulius Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: musorian territory Posts: 439	hi , they have many ,, on or 50 , or 3 on one side and one on the other , depends on how the smith felt at the time , looks to be a dagger of sorts , not a knidjal , more like iran?? althoug ive seen ones like that fomr turky, but without the preforations. rivkin , sorry didnt finish my email,,,,, thing is here ther eis somany national groups , and many of these national groups didnt exsist as they are 400 years ago,, and then 1000 years ago there was other groups ,, and others and such , there has never beed a stabil period,, greater albania was about the height of it,, the thing is people here have always lived in clans or tribes,, and basicly the social system was not so structured as to allow large settelments to last long , hence poor documentation and little or not local records, also the constant change or religion , anguage,, and population dosnt allow for muh record keeping , also because of the clan nature of the society the population can quickly change,, i one clan defeats another , the others was many times eradicated compleatly ,, the dwellings destroyed or captured,, and because of the small size od the clans history of this is poorly recorded, also 75 years of communisim and the 100 or so years of russian control .. combined with an influx of moslem influince have affected local tradition and language greatly , also because of the lack of much localy written records and the lack of much interest from outsiders history is pretty patchy, and dure to the fact that these societies never had much of a hiracial system there as few people recording the history.. dont know how much iran spends on such things, but they have many sources from which to glean information , and there is maybe 40milion iranians living in iran,, so thats alot more than say 130000 lak.. or 35000 nogai and even then these groups are seperated by clans and dialect differences, so there is maybe 10 dialects out of 130000 people , , ......

13th January 2015, 07:09 PM	#5
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	COMMENTS HERE ARE SELDOM STUPID, HUMOROUS AND SILLY AT TIMES BUT NOT STUPID. TO SOME A COMMENT MAY BE OBVIOUS AND A WELL KNOWN FACT OR FALLACY BUT TO OTHERS IT MAY BE NEW INFORMATION. WHILE WE OFTEN COVER THE SAME GROUND HERE ITS STILL WORTH IT AS WE MAY COME ACROSS NEW INFORMATION AT SOME POINT.

13th January 2015, 07:31 PM	#6
Sancar Member Join Date: Sep 2013 Posts: 79	I have a different theory(though not set in stone) about the origin of "kindjal" or qama; I believe this particular form of shrot sword/dagger to come from Iran and Central Asia and evolved from the Scythian short sword akinakes. What do you guys think?

15th January 2015, 06:45 PM	#7
Oliver Pinchot Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 464	There was a substantial, in many cases overwhelming, Arab military presence in Western Asia by the late 8th century. This included wars with Byzantium and several of the Caucasian kingdoms. One of the words which was adopted from Arabic was khanjar: rendered kindjal in Russian and khanjul in Armenian. There were probably distinct characteristics to the weapon itself which accompanied this adoption, such as its form or mode of wear. In Russian, kindjal means generically, a dagger. Kindjal is an odd term to use for the well-known Caucasian dagger, one which was applied by Imperial Russian soldiers serving in the Crimea and Caucasus and later by arms specialists. It was adopted thereafter by collectors who came in contact with it through Russian sources. Local groups did not use the word "kindjal" until after the Caucasian Wars. Each culture has at least one name of its own; Adighea and Georgian, among others, have a number of terms, each relative to the characteristics of the weapon. One of these terms in Adighea is kama. Kama is a loan-word from Ottoman قامه, (kama in modern Turkish) meaning a wedge or tapering double-edged blade. Together with the term, this form of dagger was introduced via Black Sea trade to the Adighea-speaking groups we know as Circassians. It spread very quickly through the rest of the Caucasus, assuming subtle but distinct regional variations in form and embellishment. (The distinctive Circassian tunic and cavalry saber, called by the Russian military, cherkesska* and shashka but actually tse and shash'huwa in Adighea, were also adopted throughout the Caucasus during the 19th century; again, with regional distinctions.) (The Ottoman term قامه can be found here: https://archive.org/stream/Dictionna...up/search/kama ) The terms kilic, shamshir and seyf (or saif) refer generically to a "sword" in Turkish, Persian and Arabic, however pala, a Turkish word, was used to refer specifically to the curved and back-edged saber we think of as characteristically Ottoman from at least the 18th century. Interestingly, the Turkish word for a straight-bladed broadsword or thrusting sword (an estoc or tuck, in English) is meç* (metch,) a cognate with the Russian word меч(mietch) and by extension, the Finnish term, miekka.

16th January 2015, 02:04 AM	#8
Sancar Member Join Date: Sep 2013 Posts: 79	Actually "meç" is a loan word from either French or Hungarian I believe. But it is used in Turkish to mean "narrow straight double edged blade" as early as 1400s. "Pala" is a very generic term that can mean very different things in historical usage varying from a large gypsy knife( Çingene palası) to even a longer yataghan. Today, people tend to use it for late period ottoman kilij which I find very problematic terminologically. "Kama" is a Turkish term specifically for a straight double edged pointy, triangular, or tapering double edged blade or wedge. It is a very old word. You can find it even in oldest Turkish texts and dictionaries.