Meteorite Dagger?

VANDOO · 3rd August 2006, 03:44 PM

I AM VERY SUSPECIOUS OF THIS ITEM ESPECIALLY BECAUSE OF THE RUST ON THE BLADE, THE LOOSE RUST WAS NOT EVEN BRUSHED OFF FOR THE PHOTO. I GUESS THEY THOUGHT THAT WOULD MAKE IT LOOK OLD BUT ONE WITH KNOWLEGE OF EDGED WEAPONS WHO WAS TRYING TO PRESENT A RARE AND UNIQUE ITEM FOR SALE WOULD NOT HAVE DONE THAT.

I WOULD NOT WANT IT IN MY COLLECTION BECAUSE IT LOOKS LIKE ONE OF THOSE THINGS THAT THE LADYS PUT BATTERIES IN.

Ian · 3rd August 2006, 05:57 PM

Another one where the seller's feedback is "private" and the bidders' IDs are kept "private."

CAVEAT EMPTOR!!!

newempire@echoes.net · 4th August 2006, 03:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian

Another one where the seller's feedback is "private" and the bidders' IDs are kept "private."

CAVEAT EMPTOR!!!

I concur with Ian, private feedback is the first red flag flown by an unscrupulous eBay seller, the second red flag is keeping the bidders ID private so a knowledgeable collector is unable to warn the bidder. Also! Ebay is flooded with cheap Chinese imports.

BSMStar · 3rd August 2006, 09:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VANDOO

I WOULD NOT WANT IT IN MY COLLECTION BECAUSE IT LOOKS LIKE ONE OF THOSE THINGS THAT THE LADYS PUT BATTERIES IN.

And I thought it looked like a candle.

I have to add... than not all meteorite blades were worked and folded... if a "raw" meteorite were just shaped into a blade form and then rusted, you would be able to see some of the Widmanstatten pattern in the rust (assuming that it is not an ataxite). There are examples from Namibia (weapons made from the Gibeon Meteorite). Some spear points have been polished and etched... cool!

A. G. Maisey · 3rd August 2006, 11:34 PM

Yes, meteoritic material can be cut, polished etched, and mounted as a blade. This has been done by some custom knife makers in the US, and possibly in other places, too.

When meteoritic material has been used as pamor in keris and other items of wesi aji in Jawa, the fragments of meteoritic material have been wrapped in an iron envelope, welded together, and then repeatedly folded and welded until the material was clean. The end product of this process could be used to make a blade, or it could be used to adorn a blade as pamor.

However, it is possible to take pieces of meteoritic material and weld these pieces into a solid, clean mass of material. I have done this on several occasions, and although I only produced small billets, just large enough to provide pamor material for a keris, after combining with iron, if I had had a larger quantity of meteorite, I could easily have produced a billet large enough for a knife blade made entirely of meteoritic material.

If I can do it, other people could have done it. It is possible.

As for identifying meteoritic material after it has been forged, well, the famous historical metallurgist Professor Jerzy Piaskowski of Poland cannot advise of any way in which this can be done, and judging from the response I have had from other analytical metallugists spread across the globe, including a couple who specialise in analysis of meteorites, nobody else can tell us how to do it either.

nechesh · 4th August 2006, 03:01 AM

This seller specializes in "interesting" and "unusual" items of "great spititual power". He seems to offer a great deal of such items.

BSMStar · 4th August 2006, 01:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

As for identifying meteoritic material after it has been forged, well, the famous historical metallurgist Professor Jerzy Piaskowski of Poland cannot advise of any way in which this can be done, and judging from the response I have had from other analytical metallugists spread across the globe, including a couple who specialise in analysis of meteorites, nobody else can tell us how to do it either.

I am a bit surprised that people who analyze meteorites do not know how to do this. The answer is in the trace elements, they are the fingerprint for cosmic origin. Arizona State University, Center for Meteorite Studies has been using an Electron Microprobe for years to do qualitative/quantitative analysis for meteorites and trace element amounts. The question is, getting someone to do this test (it requires polishing a small area of the surface) on a non-meteorite, and putting a number of blemishes on you otherwise beautiful sword. (Well, there is the issues of sample size).

FYI:

http://meteorites.asu.edu/

http://probelab.geo.umn.edu/

http://geoinfo.nmt.edu/labs/micropro...tion/home.html

Jeff Pringle · 4th August 2006, 02:06 PM

Quote:

The answer is in the trace elements, they are the fingerprint for cosmic origin.

You can get trace elements by INAA as well as EMP, with a very small sample size.
I think in addition to a good Iridium anomaly, a blade with a percentage of meteorite would have oxygen isotopes that are skewed off the terrestrial mass fractionation line.
By looking at the Cobalt/Nickel ratio you might get some clues as well.

Jens Nordlunde · 4th August 2006, 02:52 PM

Interesting mails, and educational as well, and I admit I wrote about something I did not know anything about

. I do however find it unlikely, that the seller had the blade tested by one of the methods mentioned, or he would have mentioned it

.

BSMStar · 4th August 2006, 06:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

I do however find it unlikely, that the seller had the blade tested by one of the methods mentioned, or he would have mentioned it

. [/font][/color]

Jens, didn't you read?

1. It was likely to be made of meteorite.
2. Meteorite blades do not rust.
And my favorite...
3. Always acquire ancient artifacts from expert sources. (Yea right...)

So, this fine print suggests:
1. It might be made from a meteorite.
2. The blade rusted, so it is not made from a meteorite (following the logic).
3. Do not buy from me; since you can not buy $50,000+ ancient artifacts for $600.

And I still think it looks like one of my wife's candles.

BSMStar · 4th August 2006, 06:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Pringle

You can get trace elements by INAA as well as EMP, with a very small sample size.
I think in addition to a good Iridium anomaly, a blade with a percentage of meteorite would have oxygen isotopes that are skewed off the terrestrial mass fractionation line.
By looking at the Cobalt/Nickel ratio you might get some clues as well.

For those who are hard core, here is a link on INAA:

http://www.ncnr.nist.gov/div8395/inaa.html

A. G. Maisey · 4th August 2006, 10:33 PM

Thanks for your input on the ID question, BSM & Jeff.

I first started to make this enquiry in about 1986.

Since the first time I enquired I have posed the same, or a similar question to more people than I can recall.

I most recently posed the question on 6th. March 2006, when I sent emails to a number of people who specialize in analysis of meteoritic material.

A couple did not answer.

A couple clearly did not understand what I wrote and replied with answers that were not relevant to my question.

The other people who replied, and I forget now if I recieved two answers or three, provided answers which indicated that it was not possible to identify meteoritic material in circumstances that I outlined.

Would you two gentlemen concur with those opinions, or not?

Here is the text of the letter that I sent out in March this year:-

Dear ---------,

My name is Alan Maisey.

My field of study is the Javanese keris.

The keris in Java is a cultural icon surrounded by complex layers of belief systems.

One of these beliefs relates to the inclusion of meteoritic material in the blade of the keris.

A keris blade is made by forge processes involving multiple layering and welding of the material used in the construction of the blade. A blade containing meteoritic material would typically have the meteoritic material refined and cleaned by folding and welding, and then this meteoritic material would be combined, by folding and welding, with iron.

We know that material from the Prambanan meteorite was used in the construction of some keris made in Central Jawa and dating from circa 1800.

I myself have worked with a Javanese pandai keris (keris maker) and produced a blade made of meteoritic material from Arizona.

A continuing problem for students of the keris is the identification of keris blades which contain meteoritic material. We know that some blades do contain this material, but we have no way of knowing which blades these are, short of actually knowing the history and maker of the blade, something which is so rare as to be almost non-existent.

It is relatively important for keris blades which do contain meteoritic material to be identifiable.

A keris blade that definitely contains meteoritic material has a higher cultural and monetary value, than does one which does not contain meteoritic material.

It has been suggested to me that use of electron microprobe procedures could provide positive identification of meteoritic material incorporated as a component of forge worked material combined with iron.

My question to you is this:-

Is it possible to positively identify material which has been subjected to forge processes, including welding, as containing meteoritic material?

Your response would be greatly appreciated.

Sincerely,

Alan Maisey

There it is, BSM & Jeff.

Take a very small quantity of meteoritic material, fold and weld with iron through at least 8 folds and more than 8 weld heats, weld the resulting billet to a piece of steel, forge this out and shape and finish it.

Then subject the finished product to analysis and give a positive ID of meteoritic content.

Can it be done or not?

3rd August 2006, 05:57 PM	#2
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,367	Red flags ... Another one where the seller's feedback is "private" and the bidders' IDs are kept "private." CAVEAT EMPTOR!!!

4th August 2006, 02:52 PM	#9
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Interesting mails, and educational as well, and I admit I wrote about something I did not know anything about. I do however find it unlikely, that the seller had the blade tested by one of the methods mentioned, or he would have mentioned it.

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3rd August 2006, 03:44 PM	#1
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	I AM VERY SUSPECIOUS OF THIS ITEM ESPECIALLY BECAUSE OF THE RUST ON THE BLADE, THE LOOSE RUST WAS NOT EVEN BRUSHED OFF FOR THE PHOTO. I GUESS THEY THOUGHT THAT WOULD MAKE IT LOOK OLD BUT ONE WITH KNOWLEGE OF EDGED WEAPONS WHO WAS TRYING TO PRESENT A RARE AND UNIQUE ITEM FOR SALE WOULD NOT HAVE DONE THAT. I WOULD NOT WANT IT IN MY COLLECTION BECAUSE IT LOOKS LIKE ONE OF THOSE THINGS THAT THE LADYS PUT BATTERIES IN.

3rd August 2006, 11:34 PM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,994	Yes, meteoritic material can be cut, polished etched, and mounted as a blade. This has been done by some custom knife makers in the US, and possibly in other places, too. When meteoritic material has been used as pamor in keris and other items of wesi aji in Jawa, the fragments of meteoritic material have been wrapped in an iron envelope, welded together, and then repeatedly folded and welded until the material was clean. The end product of this process could be used to make a blade, or it could be used to adorn a blade as pamor. However, it is possible to take pieces of meteoritic material and weld these pieces into a solid, clean mass of material. I have done this on several occasions, and although I only produced small billets, just large enough to provide pamor material for a keris, after combining with iron, if I had had a larger quantity of meteorite, I could easily have produced a billet large enough for a knife blade made entirely of meteoritic material. If I can do it, other people could have done it. It is possible. As for identifying meteoritic material after it has been forged, well, the famous historical metallurgist Professor Jerzy Piaskowski of Poland cannot advise of any way in which this can be done, and judging from the response I have had from other analytical metallugists spread across the globe, including a couple who specialise in analysis of meteorites, nobody else can tell us how to do it either.

4th August 2006, 03:01 AM	#6
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	This seller specializes in "interesting" and "unusual" items of "great spititual power". He seems to offer a great deal of such items.

4th August 2006, 10:33 PM	#12
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,994	Thanks for your input on the ID question, BSM & Jeff. I first started to make this enquiry in about 1986. Since the first time I enquired I have posed the same, or a similar question to more people than I can recall. I most recently posed the question on 6th. March 2006, when I sent emails to a number of people who specialize in analysis of meteoritic material. A couple did not answer. A couple clearly did not understand what I wrote and replied with answers that were not relevant to my question. The other people who replied, and I forget now if I recieved two answers or three, provided answers which indicated that it was not possible to identify meteoritic material in circumstances that I outlined. Would you two gentlemen concur with those opinions, or not? Here is the text of the letter that I sent out in March this year:- Dear ---------, My name is Alan Maisey. My field of study is the Javanese keris. The keris in Java is a cultural icon surrounded by complex layers of belief systems. One of these beliefs relates to the inclusion of meteoritic material in the blade of the keris. A keris blade is made by forge processes involving multiple layering and welding of the material used in the construction of the blade. A blade containing meteoritic material would typically have the meteoritic material refined and cleaned by folding and welding, and then this meteoritic material would be combined, by folding and welding, with iron. We know that material from the Prambanan meteorite was used in the construction of some keris made in Central Jawa and dating from circa 1800. I myself have worked with a Javanese pandai keris (keris maker) and produced a blade made of meteoritic material from Arizona. A continuing problem for students of the keris is the identification of keris blades which contain meteoritic material. We know that some blades do contain this material, but we have no way of knowing which blades these are, short of actually knowing the history and maker of the blade, something which is so rare as to be almost non-existent. It is relatively important for keris blades which do contain meteoritic material to be identifiable. A keris blade that definitely contains meteoritic material has a higher cultural and monetary value, than does one which does not contain meteoritic material. It has been suggested to me that use of electron microprobe procedures could provide positive identification of meteoritic material incorporated as a component of forge worked material combined with iron. My question to you is this:- Is it possible to positively identify material which has been subjected to forge processes, including welding, as containing meteoritic material? Your response would be greatly appreciated. Sincerely, Alan Maisey There it is, BSM & Jeff. Take a very small quantity of meteoritic material, fold and weld with iron through at least 8 folds and more than 8 weld heats, weld the resulting billet to a piece of steel, forge this out and shape and finish it. Then subject the finished product to analysis and give a positive ID of meteoritic content. Can it be done or not?