Origins of the Keris?

Orang Lama · Yesterday, 02:48 PM

I'd be interested to hear if anyone has any opinions on the shape of these bronze Hoko spearheads from the Kyoto National Museum. This particular form seems to be a local variant on the Chinese ge dagger-axe and so would have been mounted perpendicular to the haft.

David · Yesterday, 06:19 PM

Hi Orang Lama. We don't generally discuss non-keris items on the keris page and my inclination is to transfer this to the Ethnographic Forum. But if i understand you correctly from how you titled this thread you seem to be enquiring if these blades could be a forerunner to the keris??? I do see the similarity in form, but don't personally feel fully qualified to give a substantiated answer here. So i will allow the discussion to continue as long as it stays focussed on keris, though i suspect it will end up in the Ethno Forum soon enough.
My gut response is no, these are not related to keris, and any similarities are merely coincidental, but perhaps some of our more knowledgable members have a different opinion on than. I have never heard or read of anyome relating the origin of keris to Japanese edged weapons.
It would be helpful to know to what era the Kyoto National Museum dated these. Also they appear different from what i am seeing as Hoko spearheads when i search.

A. G. Maisey · Today, 01:42 AM

The question of keris origin has been addressed by many people, and when we examine this matter closely we find that it is something that is inextricably tied to the socio-cultural development of Jawa prior to 10th century, CE.

Across the world there are a number of weapon forms that can resemble the keris in one way or another, and a simple physical resemblance is not sufficient upon which to build an idea of origin.

However, if we can show trade, cultural & political links between the Central Javanese society during the early Classical Period & Japan, that might be a place to start investigation.

But then we are immediately faced with the fact that the keris is culturally tied to the Javanese/Balinese Hindu belief system. It might be quite difficult to introduce an idea of Japanese influence.

Yesterday, 02:48 PM	#1
Orang Lama Member Join Date: Sep 2022 Location: Newfoundland Posts: 9	Origins of the Keris? I'd be interested to hear if anyone has any opinions on the shape of these bronze Hoko spearheads from the Kyoto National Museum. This particular form seems to be a local variant on the Chinese ge dagger-axe and so would have been mounted perpendicular to the haft. Attached Images

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Yesterday, 06:19 PM	#2
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,290	Hi Orang Lama. We don't generally discuss non-keris items on the keris page and my inclination is to transfer this to the Ethnographic Forum. But if i understand you correctly from how you titled this thread you seem to be enquiring if these blades could be a forerunner to the keris??? I do see the similarity in form, but don't personally feel fully qualified to give a substantiated answer here. So i will allow the discussion to continue as long as it stays focussed on keris, though i suspect it will end up in the Ethno Forum soon enough. My gut response is no, these are not related to keris, and any similarities are merely coincidental, but perhaps some of our more knowledgable members have a different opinion on than. I have never heard or read of anyome relating the origin of keris to Japanese edged weapons. It would be helpful to know to what era the Kyoto National Museum dated these. Also they appear different from what i am seeing as Hoko spearheads when i search.

Today, 01:42 AM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,220	The question of keris origin has been addressed by many people, and when we examine this matter closely we find that it is something that is inextricably tied to the socio-cultural development of Jawa prior to 10th century, CE. Across the world there are a number of weapon forms that can resemble the keris in one way or another, and a simple physical resemblance is not sufficient upon which to build an idea of origin. However, if we can show trade, cultural & political links between the Central Javanese society during the early Classical Period & Japan, that might be a place to start investigation. But then we are immediately faced with the fact that the keris is culturally tied to the Javanese/Balinese Hindu belief system. It might be quite difficult to introduce an idea of Japanese influence.