Unusual pamor

adamb · Yesterday, 02:24 AM

Hi All, any insight into this keris much appreciated.

Obviously Malay dress (sheath not that old, I think); old ivory Jawa demam hilt (inset eyes missing). Old Malay hilt cup.

Blade is slender and dainty and looks to me like the Javanese pamor lawe saukel; overall seems like a Javanese product. Blade is old, but has been well-fitted to the Malay-type sheath.

I would be grateful if anyone is willing to share their opinion on this one.

Cheers

A. G. Maisey · Yesterday, 07:55 AM

Yes Adam, one of the Lawe Setukel variations, most likely East Jawa/Madura.

Gustav · Yesterday, 10:18 AM

Sheath is From Terengganu, first half of 20th cent, likely second quarter.
Hilt - Minangkabau, Sumatra.
Pedongkok - likely Terengganu.

David · Yesterday, 04:26 PM

Nice keris. Not uncommon to find Madurese or Javanese keris in Malay dress.
I think the ivory Jawa Demam has some age, bit feel that the colour has been augmented to give it an even older appearance.

Rick · Yesterday, 05:37 PM

Does this keris have an iron core?

David · Yesterday, 07:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

Does this keris have an iron core?

Good question. Is this not the core revealed here though?

Rick · Yesterday, 08:35 PM

I'm just not sure David. The metal is so bright.

A. G. Maisey · Yesterday, 08:51 PM

That does appear to be separation of the pamor layer from the steel core, it would surprise me if this keris did not have a core, it appears to have some age, and this type of pamor is not usually found in a keris made purely for decorative purposes.

However, to be certain that it does have a core we would need to examine both sides at the same time, looking at both edges simultaneously so that we could see the same separation, or if not the actual separation, the line of demarcation between core & pamor layer, at the same place on the blade, on both sides of the blade.

Sajen · Yesterday, 09:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gustav

Sheath is From Terengganu, first half of 20th cent, likely second quarter.

Hello Gustav,

May I ask you why you think or be certain about the age of the Terengganu scabbard? In my humble opinion it could be older when it was refurbished at one point in its history.

Regards,
Detlef

Sajen · Yesterday, 09:58 PM

Hello Adam,

Can we see a picture how the blade fits in the scabbard?

Regards,
Detlef

adamb · Yesterday, 10:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

Does this keris have an iron core?

Yes, this is something I had wondered about even from the seller's photographs, as the pamor seemed to go right to the edges of the blade around the full periphery.

Now that I have the blade to hand I'm none the wiser; I can't see a clear separation of core from pamor on either face or anywhere along the margins.

These additional photos might help to show that.

I did think from the seller's images that this might be a "core-less" decorative blade, which I had read about before, in which case the apparent age of the blade (even in seller's images, the patina was evident) intrigued me.

adamb · Yesterday, 10:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Nice keris. Not uncommon to find Madurese or Javanese keris in Malay dress.
I think the ivory Jawa Demam has some age, bit feel that the colour has been augmented to give it an even older appearance.

Thanks David, are there any tell-tale clues RE artificial colouring of ivory that I should look for? (Apologies if there are already extensive threads dedicated to this topic - as with the Phantom, I came in late).

adamb · Yesterday, 10:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

Hello Adam,

Can we see a picture how the blade fits in the scabbard?

Regards,
Detlef

G'day Detlef; here you go

adamb · Yesterday, 10:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Yes Adam, one of the Lawe Setukel variations, most likely East Jawa/Madura.

Thank you Alan; I'm told blithely but rather authoritatively by the internet that this is a rare and sought-after pamor type; is that right?

cheers
A

Gustav · Yesterday, 10:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

Hello Gustav,

May I ask you why you think or be certain about the age of the Terengganu scabbard? In my humble opinion it could be older when it was refurbished at one point in its history.

Regards,
Detlef

Detlef, I think so because of the form of Sampir. 19th cent. Terengganu Sampir is quite similar to Riau-Johore Sampir, from which it likely originates. During the first part of 20th cent. the Terengganu form becomes "boxier".

A. G. Maisey · Yesterday, 11:39 PM

Hilt.
To my eye the entire hilt looks like it has been soaked in very strong tea, or maybe even coffee, & then given a good rubbing with coconut husk.

Blade core
I very much doubt that this is a recent decorative blade, OK, I'm basing my opinion on photos, but from those photos my impression is that this is not of recent manufacture. I feel that the gonjo could well be later than the body of the blade.

Rather than referring to a "blade core", it might be more correct to refer to a "cutting edge". Some older blades, I think probably most that I have seen would be around the Second Mataram era, do have an inserted cutting edge. There are several ways of producing a pamor blade with an inserted edge, but what happens as the blade ages is that with continued cleaning & maintenance that inserted edge erodes and we see the cutting edge disappear.

When I remarked that we need to see both edges at the same time, this is not possible to do in a photo, I do not mean that we look at the blade edge on, what we do is to turn the blade slightly, from side to side & continue to focus on just that section of the blade where we see the separation of cutting edge from pamor layer, we can then perhaps see a similar separation, or at least a defining line, between cutting edge & pamor layer on both sides of the blade in the same section of the blade.

Esoterica
It is believed by some people that this particular pamor can have an adverse effect upon the possessor if that person is not strong enough to withstand the esoteric influence of the powers contained in the blade. However, many other people believe that it has strong defensive power to protect against black magic. It is a fairly widespread belief that it is definitely not a pamor that is suited to everybody, & you don't really know if it is suited to you or not until the sh*t hits the fan, so its best to stay away from it.
It is a relatively easy pamor to produce.
As for being "sought after", well a lot of collectors are rather partial to this pamor, I myself am pretty found of it & have a very old, very good example, but most keris literate, traditional Javanese people tend to avoid this pamor.

Sajen · Today, 09:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gustav

Detlef, I think so because of the form of Sampir. 19th cent. Terengganu Sampir is quite similar to Riau-Johore Sampir, from which it likely originates. During the first part of 20th cent. the Terengganu form becomes "boxier".

Thank you very much Gustav!

Sajen · Today, 09:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by adamb

G'day Detlef; here you go

Thank you Adam! The scabbard seems to be made for the blade, if I were you I would look for a fitting Terengganu handle.

Regards,
Detlef

Sajen · Today, 09:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Hilt.
To my eye the entire hilt looks like it has been soaked in very strong tea, or maybe even coffee, & then given a good rubbing with coconut husk.

Hello Alan,

The ivory handle seems to have a good age, there is a crack in the handle and the base is replaced by a piece of horn most probably because it was too splitted, why should it be soaked in tea or coffee to age it artificially?

Regards,
Detlef

A. G. Maisey · Today, 11:45 AM

Post #4, David suggests that this dark colouring of the hilt is perhaps not entirely natural.

I agree with him.

I have more than a few ivories, well over 100 ivory hilts, some of which are several hundred years old, in addition I have many other ivories. Only the few that have been purposely coloured bear colour resembling the colour of this hilt. This type of patination does not in my experience occur naturally, it requires some outside agent to generate it.

In respect of why this was done we would need to ask the person who did it.

I am not prepared to speculate as to why this particular hilt might have been coloured.

I do know that the application of false patina is quite prevalent in Asian & South East Asian societies. I used to be acquainted with several dealers in Jawa & Bali who practiced this method of "enhancement", I saw how it was done.

This hilt under discussion looks to me as if it has been treated in this way.

Yesterday, 02:24 AM	#1
adamb Member Join Date: Oct 2024 Location: Brisbane, Australia Posts: 62	Unusual pamor Hi All, any insight into this keris much appreciated. Obviously Malay dress (sheath not that old, I think); old ivory Jawa demam hilt (inset eyes missing). Old Malay hilt cup. Blade is slender and dainty and looks to me like the Javanese pamor lawe saukel; overall seems like a Javanese product. Blade is old, but has been well-fitted to the Malay-type sheath. I would be grateful if anyone is willing to share their opinion on this one. Cheers Attached Images

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Yesterday, 07:55 AM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,169	Yes Adam, one of the Lawe Setukel variations, most likely East Jawa/Madura.

Yesterday, 10:18 AM	#3
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,310	Sheath is From Terengganu, first half of 20th cent, likely second quarter. Hilt - Minangkabau, Sumatra. Pedongkok - likely Terengganu.

Yesterday, 04:26 PM	#4
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,273	Nice keris. Not uncommon to find Madurese or Javanese keris in Malay dress. I think the ivory Jawa Demam has some age, bit feel that the colour has been augmented to give it an even older appearance.

Yesterday, 05:37 PM	#5
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,395	Does this keris have an iron core?

Yesterday, 08:35 PM	#7
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,395	I'm just not sure David. The metal is so bright.

Yesterday, 08:51 PM	#8
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,169	That does appear to be separation of the pamor layer from the steel core, it would surprise me if this keris did not have a core, it appears to have some age, and this type of pamor is not usually found in a keris made purely for decorative purposes. However, to be certain that it does have a core we would need to examine both sides at the same time, looking at both edges simultaneously so that we could see the same separation, or if not the actual separation, the line of demarcation between core & pamor layer, at the same place on the blade, on both sides of the blade.

Yesterday, 09:58 PM	#10
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 9,569	Hello Adam, Can we see a picture how the blade fits in the scabbard? Regards, Detlef

Yesterday, 11:39 PM	#16
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,169	Hilt. To my eye the entire hilt looks like it has been soaked in very strong tea, or maybe even coffee, & then given a good rubbing with coconut husk. Blade core I very much doubt that this is a recent decorative blade, OK, I'm basing my opinion on photos, but from those photos my impression is that this is not of recent manufacture. I feel that the gonjo could well be later than the body of the blade. Rather than referring to a "blade core", it might be more correct to refer to a "cutting edge". Some older blades, I think probably most that I have seen would be around the Second Mataram era, do have an inserted cutting edge. There are several ways of producing a pamor blade with an inserted edge, but what happens as the blade ages is that with continued cleaning & maintenance that inserted edge erodes and we see the cutting edge disappear. When I remarked that we need to see both edges at the same time, this is not possible to do in a photo, I do not mean that we look at the blade edge on, what we do is to turn the blade slightly, from side to side & continue to focus on just that section of the blade where we see the separation of cutting edge from pamor layer, we can then perhaps see a similar separation, or at least a defining line, between cutting edge & pamor layer on both sides of the blade in the same section of the blade. Esoterica It is believed by some people that this particular pamor can have an adverse effect upon the possessor if that person is not strong enough to withstand the esoteric influence of the powers contained in the blade. However, many other people believe that it has strong defensive power to protect against black magic. It is a fairly widespread belief that it is definitely not a pamor that is suited to everybody, & you don't really know if it is suited to you or not until the sh*t hits the fan, so its best to stay away from it. It is a relatively easy pamor to produce. As for being "sought after", well a lot of collectors are rather partial to this pamor, I myself am pretty found of it & have a very old, very good example, but most keris literate, traditional Javanese people tend to avoid this pamor.

Today, 11:45 AM	#20
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,169	Post #4, David suggests that this dark colouring of the hilt is perhaps not entirely natural. I agree with him. I have more than a few ivories, well over 100 ivory hilts, some of which are several hundred years old, in addition I have many other ivories. Only the few that have been purposely coloured bear colour resembling the colour of this hilt. This type of patination does not in my experience occur naturally, it requires some outside agent to generate it. In respect of why this was done we would need to ask the person who did it. I am not prepared to speculate as to why this particular hilt might have been coloured. I do know that the application of false patina is quite prevalent in Asian & South East Asian societies. I used to be acquainted with several dealers in Jawa & Bali who practiced this method of "enhancement", I saw how it was done. This hilt under discussion looks to me as if it has been treated in this way.