Naval Caribbean rapier

[midelburgo]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

"Small Arms of the Spanish Treasure Fleets", Noel Wells, 2006, p.72

"...in Spain, the term rapier was often used to designate small swords, and the first such land patterns authorized for wear by officers began to appear in the middle of the 18th century. There were no designated sea service swords at this time, and if an officer or anyone of lower ranks wanted one, he either purchased a non-regulation sword or adopted an existing army model".

An intriguing and comprehensive book, which gives dynamic perspectives on the weaponry even including dogs and horses as used in warfare in these colonial situations, as well as the Indian arms.

Rapier (ropera) was used in a couple of inventories in the 1480s and then dissapeared of Spanish language until XXth century.

In the Album of the Marques de la Victoria (1720s-1740s) there is a dedicated plate to sea weapons. In some navigation and naval subject books (like Alonso de Chaves, middle of XVIth century) you can find descriptions of sea weaponry.

In spite of all the hollywood stuff, spanish weapons and ships were mostly simple undecorated matters, and anonimous. That is why it is dificcult to associate and identify survivors, and these were not "interesting" or have been reused up to their destruction.

[Jim McDougall]

Midelburgo, I cannot even describe all this insight and data you have added but for one word...BRILLIANT!
You have completely and resoundingly revised everything I knew (or thought I knew on Spanish and its colonial weapons industries).
Please pardon my exuberance, but understanding these matters has always been important to me, and your well researched detail is so valuable, and I thank you for sharing it here.

Thank you very much!

Jim

[midelburgo]

At this moment there is a complete separation between the current archives research and the artifacts themselves. Spain has probably the best records of the crown workshops, but their products are just now starting to be identified.
The books by Vicente Toledo are great because he has tried exhaustively to picture every Spanish sword known to him. I believe however many of the identifications he made are not well aimed.
The first caveat with Spanish swords up to 1850 is that their current hilts are often not the original ones.

To the mess described in the previous post you have to add another two more layers of confussion. It seems the Barcelona blades were well considered, so around 1775, Solingen, started making copies with the same mottoes. Some years later in the revolutionary war with France in 1793, and the 1808 invasion, the French captured many of these swords, originals and copies, and rehilted them as war trophies. Those dragoon blades from the 1760s, you also find them with French 1767 elite coompany hilts, or cavalry hilts from around 1810, in the empire style.

Then some of those swords, with blades already 70 years old, took part in the Spanish Carlist wars. And some of their mottoes were attributed with new meanings and intentions.

I am planning to write a couple of articles in English clarifying this conundrum.

[Jim McDougall]

I very much look forward to the articles!!! as I am busily (and totally) revamping my notes!!!

To that I would ask, on the familiar 'Spanish motto' blades, I had long thought that these were decidedly Solingen products and from c. 1750s, typically of course on the 'dragoon' blades ('1728') which remained in production well through to later in the century. I had no idea of the French capturing these and remounting them.

What book by Toledo?

[midelburgo]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

I very much look forward to the articles!!! as I am busily (and totally) revamping my notes!!!

To that I would ask, on the familiar 'Spanish motto' blades, I had long thought that these were decidedly Solingen products and from c. 1750s, typically of course on the 'dragoon' blades ('1728') which remained in production well through to later in the century. I had no idea of the French capturing these and remounting them.

What book by Toledo?

Until this year I thought mottoes were a thing from Solingen all the way. I am still trying to understand the order of appearition in straight blades, but for sabers, Barcelona started and Solingen copied. I have a couple of swords, I have not shown yet, that are a good proof.

At Tolosa, as they were also making armors, they had both engravers and gilders. I suspect I have identified a group of 4 blades, all with the same motto that could come from there, late XVIIth century.

I wrote previous post thinking in "POR MY LEY Y POR MY REY". It appears in several blades in Brinckerhof, which I believe are prior 1767 and marked as from Barcelona.

But this motto has been described as a liberal (against Carlist faction) because it puts law first and the king in second position. Sometime around 1820-1850.

The oldest blades with "NO ME SAQUES" I have seen are Italian and XVIth century. The first Solingen versions I believe are XVIIIth century and by the same people who where making fake markings of ENRIQUE COEL and GIO KNEGT. Because there are blades marked ENRIQUE COEL and GIO KNEGT in XVIIth century, but there were several batches/rounds of faking them later. This is when you find the same blade (lenticular, broad channel, 1/3 of length) being inscribed ENRIQUE COEL or GIO KNEGT or NO ME SAQUES, depending of the fancy that day in the Solingen workshop.

[Pertinax]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

I very much look forward to the articles!!! as I am busily (and totally) revamping my notes!!!

To that I would ask, on the familiar 'Spanish motto' blades, I had long thought that these were decidedly Solingen products and from c. 1750s, typically of course on the 'dragoon' blades ('1728') which remained in production well through to later in the century. I had no idea of the French capturing these and remounting them.

What book by Toledo?

Hi Jim!
Look here:
https://vicentetoledo.es/es/espadas\

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Yuri! Thank you so much!!!

Midelburgo, you MUST write a book........articles will slide away into the ether.
There is nothing on Spanish swords in English since the Brinckerhoff & Chamberlain in 1972. I knew Chamberlain personally, who was a great deal of help as I flailed in the cloudy notes and notions of those times trying to learn. I recall imploring him to write a revision back in 80s....he wryly chuckled and said he was out of this area, and suggested 'I' should write it (?) LOL!

That was clearly tongue in cheek. However 2 years ago I did write on the espada ancha (published by Livrustkammeren in Stockholm) . I put together everything I had gathered since the 70s, and thought it came out well.
To my dismay, it was met with resounding silence and absolutely no notice, literally none.

Disappointed, I thought there cannot be this little interest in these areas, but now I am wondering if my observations ( which clearly had gaps) led to mistakes and the silence kindly placed.
Thanks to these new perspectives, it seems clear the field of Spanish colonial edged weapons needs a bit of rethinking.

I hope you will pursue this Midelburgo....count me first in line if there is a book!!!

All the best,
Jim