XL.german hunting sword , old blade with wheel and gallows

Akanthus · 21st September 2025, 04:57 PM

Westphal mentioned in his book that in this case they did not use the originally tang.They formed a new tang from the upper strong part of the blade. One of the cutting edges of the forner biconvex blade was removed to create a backblade which is a characteristic feature of German 17.century hunting swords. In result the wheel moves out of the centre of the blade ,witch is smaller now.So the blade is shorter and smaller .In my opinion it us difficult to decide whether the blade had a executive or a legislative history.

Jim McDougall · 21st September 2025, 07:16 PM

As I had mentioned, the notions of 'executioner swords' were with somewhat reserved character.
It seems with the added example here that the idea of a less dramatic thus more acceptable weapon in the manner of the social and status oriented hanger, hirschfanger but bearing these symbols of authority makes sense.

Clearly this was not a 'one off' practice, yet not well known, so I think important to note here.

With that being the case, the blade need not be an original 'sword of justice' example cut down, but the same type symbols used to denote the same authority intended on the older and heavier swords.

A sword I have with staghorn grip and a rulers cypher and with unusual recurved blade makes me wonder if it may have been in somewhat the same capacity in mid 18th c.

francantolin · 22nd September 2025, 06:32 PM

Magnificent long and rare dagger!
The blade is interesting, almost in the shape of a yatagan.( close to ottoman influences...)
What are the dimensions, please?
I think the blade thickness must be that of a classic hunting dagger, with a good thickness towards the heel?
The inscriptions, in my opinion, are more like the monogram of a nobleman-aristocrat, certainly master of his lands, but not that of a judge or an authority like the symbol of the Wheel of Justice, for example.
One last word regarding ́’my’́ long dagger. I simply wanted to reiterate that the blade, not only long but also very flat, has nothing to do with the usual hunting dagger blades with a very wide edge towards the heel, or a shortened felddegen blade with a thicker blade in the center. It is more like a Venetian storta-type sword blade with a wide, flat, flexible blade.

Jim McDougall · Yesterday, 12:49 AM

This thing far exceeds a dagger, its heavy and huge, definitely a horsemans weapon in form.

The markings on the blade are of course the cypher of CARL THEODORE IV , Prince Elector of the Palatine from 1742; who became Prince Elector of Bavaria in 1777.
These were ecclesiastic titles of the Holy Roman Empire of the rulers who governed various principalities and provinces.

In this case in the example I posted with this cypher, I wanted to illustrate that this form of hirshfanger is similar to examples from the previous century, and seems to follow in the traditions of these swords associated with the authority of these powerful political figures.

The 'oriental' character of my example with the yataghan type blade is from the popular affinity for Ottoman and related fashions and weaponry as favored by the notorious 'pandour' forces of Austro-Hungary in the mid 18th. c.

21st September 2025, 04:57 PM	#1
Akanthus Member Join Date: Mar 2023 Posts: 86	Westphal mentioned in his book that in this case they did not use the originally tang.They formed a new tang from the upper strong part of the blade. One of the cutting edges of the forner biconvex blade was removed to create a backblade which is a characteristic feature of German 17.century hunting swords. In result the wheel moves out of the centre of the blade ,witch is smaller now.So the blade is shorter and smaller .In my opinion it us difficult to decide whether the blade had a executive or a legislative history. Last edited by Akanthus; 21st September 2025 at 05:08 PM.

21st September 2025, 07:16 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,599	As I had mentioned, the notions of 'executioner swords' were with somewhat reserved character. It seems with the added example here that the idea of a less dramatic thus more acceptable weapon in the manner of the social and status oriented hanger, hirschfanger but bearing these symbols of authority makes sense. Clearly this was not a 'one off' practice, yet not well known, so I think important to note here. With that being the case, the blade need not be an original 'sword of justice' example cut down, but the same type symbols used to denote the same authority intended on the older and heavier swords. A sword I have with staghorn grip and a rulers cypher and with unusual recurved blade makes me wonder if it may have been in somewhat the same capacity in mid 18th c. Attached Images

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22nd September 2025, 06:32 PM	#3
francantolin Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 917	Magnificent long and rare dagger! The blade is interesting, almost in the shape of a yatagan.( close to ottoman influences...) What are the dimensions, please? I think the blade thickness must be that of a classic hunting dagger, with a good thickness towards the heel? The inscriptions, in my opinion, are more like the monogram of a nobleman-aristocrat, certainly master of his lands, but not that of a judge or an authority like the symbol of the Wheel of Justice, for example. One last word regarding ́’my’́ long dagger. I simply wanted to reiterate that the blade, not only long but also very flat, has nothing to do with the usual hunting dagger blades with a very wide edge towards the heel, or a shortened felddegen blade with a thicker blade in the center. It is more like a Venetian storta-type sword blade with a wide, flat, flexible blade.

Yesterday, 12:49 AM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,599	This thing far exceeds a dagger, its heavy and huge, definitely a horsemans weapon in form. The markings on the blade are of course the cypher of CARL THEODORE IV , Prince Elector of the Palatine from 1742; who became Prince Elector of Bavaria in 1777. These were ecclesiastic titles of the Holy Roman Empire of the rulers who governed various principalities and provinces. In this case in the example I posted with this cypher, I wanted to illustrate that this form of hirshfanger is similar to examples from the previous century, and seems to follow in the traditions of these swords associated with the authority of these powerful political figures. The 'oriental' character of my example with the yataghan type blade is from the popular affinity for Ottoman and related fashions and weaponry as favored by the notorious 'pandour' forces of Austro-Hungary in the mid 18th. c.