Montmorency blade in late 18th c. British military swords

Jim McDougall · 19th August 2025, 02:44 PM

In a concurrent thread a British fighting saber with brass hilt and fluted ebony grip was brought up. This is identical to one I have by Wooley& Deakin, generally presumed as partners from 1801-1803 (some research somewhat expands this). Another by the same partners is known, along with one shown by Wilkinson by Durs Egg.

A key element in the James Wooley (Birmingham) examples is the use of the blade in the 'montmorency' type cross section. This seems to have originated in France in earlier in the 18th c. but seems to have been obscure until about 1780s.

Its primary advantage is the hollowed faces (pan creux)were of course great for lighter blade, but only the single stiffened edge for support. The montmorency added an extra back fuller, for notably more strengthened support. During the Revolutionary years there seems to have been some crude wartime production which advanced, and it seems that there was a regiment of chausseurs who had these (may have been 2nd?) around 1799.

This unit may have been titled 'Montmorency'? but as yet no details, nor whether perhaps the lame a' la montmorency took its name from them. There were notables in France earlier in the century by that name but nothing suggesting any particular maker of blades might have created this novel idea for a single edged blade.

The production of blades about the time of the outbreak was 1789, and advanced into the years IX and XI (1801-1803) with this cross section becoming even more popular by 1820s patterns of military sabers.

The conundrum is this. James Wooley of Birmingham was producing swords in the 1780s, and in his examples of the M1788 light cavalry saber compared to those of the notable Thomas Wooley showed his favor of French affinities in his hilt form (Gills favored German) .

More importantly in our case of discussion, his M1788 had the 'montmorency' blade, and while yet uncertain it seems some of the long British dragoon straight swords had blades of this section as well. I do not recall if they were by Wooley.

Then we come to the interesting fighting sabers by Wooley (&Deakin) which again reflect Wooley's affinity for French style, the fluted ebony grips and of course, again, Montmorency blades. These do not seem to be 'one off' though not a 'pattern', but must have had a reasonable run for naval officers. It is well known that stirrup hilt 'fighting swords' were popular in naval context in this early 19th c period.

So my questions are"

WHY are they termed montmorency? were they designed by someone with that name? when?

Why was James Wooley so aligned with French designs etc. ?

Were there indeed earlier (1770s) straight blade cavalry swords with this section on blades? were any by Wooley?

Could the term montmorency derive from the unit of chausseurs in France?
Certainly that could be the case as colloquialisms do tend to come from such associations.
Likely the blade form was in use long before Wooley used them etc. and perhaps some other more technical term used?

These are my quandaries on this dilemma, and while my search goes on, I'd sure appreciate some other input. Thanks guys.

Left : the 1800 fighting saber

rt: the Wooley M1788

Norman McCormick · 19th August 2025, 04:35 PM

Hi Jim,
Here is some info which may be useful. http://vikingsword.com/vb/showthread...ht=montmorency

Regards,
Norman.

midelburgo · 19th August 2025, 08:54 PM

If we believe the inscription, this is the oldest Montmorency blade I know of.

On one side it says

NADIE SE META CONMIGO - AÑO DE 1700
QUE MATARE A QUEIN ME ENFADE

QUEIN spell mistake instead for QUIEN

Meaning

NO ONE MESS WITH ME - YEAR OF 1700
I WILL KILL WHOEVER MAKES ME ANGRY

Stilistically I believe the inscription looks rather 1770. I cannot give an opinion about the basket, looking English to me.

On the other hand, Spain used a lot of these blades. Often in America. Sometimes they have silver parts in the grip-pommel. In the Halbach (Solingen) advertisement of 1775 there is a Montmorency with inscriptions to Carlos III (check Halbach in the search). Sometimes they are shortened for infantry.

George Washington had a Montmorency too.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PiClfS5MfI0

Jim McDougall · 19th August 2025, 09:42 PM

Thanks very much guys!! Norman that was a great thread, and love those plates (either Aries or Petard) both valuable and hard to find, afford, volumes.
Midelburgo, great examples,
It seems this type of blade with this section were around from early in 18th c. so we know they found notable use,
'but the pressing question is WHY MONTMORENCY?
The name of the design.

19th August 2025, 02:44 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,547	Montmorency blade in late 18th c. British military swords In a concurrent thread a British fighting saber with brass hilt and fluted ebony grip was brought up. This is identical to one I have by Wooley& Deakin, generally presumed as partners from 1801-1803 (some research somewhat expands this). Another by the same partners is known, along with one shown by Wilkinson by Durs Egg. A key element in the James Wooley (Birmingham) examples is the use of the blade in the 'montmorency' type cross section. This seems to have originated in France in earlier in the 18th c. but seems to have been obscure until about 1780s. Its primary advantage is the hollowed faces (pan creux)were of course great for lighter blade, but only the single stiffened edge for support. The montmorency added an extra back fuller, for notably more strengthened support. During the Revolutionary years there seems to have been some crude wartime production which advanced, and it seems that there was a regiment of chausseurs who had these (may have been 2nd?) around 1799. This unit may have been titled 'Montmorency'? but as yet no details, nor whether perhaps the lame a' la montmorency took its name from them. There were notables in France earlier in the century by that name but nothing suggesting any particular maker of blades might have created this novel idea for a single edged blade. The production of blades about the time of the outbreak was 1789, and advanced into the years IX and XI (1801-1803) with this cross section becoming even more popular by 1820s patterns of military sabers. The conundrum is this. James Wooley of Birmingham was producing swords in the 1780s, and in his examples of the M1788 light cavalry saber compared to those of the notable Thomas Wooley showed his favor of French affinities in his hilt form (Gills favored German) . More importantly in our case of discussion, his M1788 had the 'montmorency' blade, and while yet uncertain it seems some of the long British dragoon straight swords had blades of this section as well. I do not recall if they were by Wooley. Then we come to the interesting fighting sabers by Wooley (&Deakin) which again reflect Wooley's affinity for French style, the fluted ebony grips and of course, again, Montmorency blades. These do not seem to be 'one off' though not a 'pattern', but must have had a reasonable run for naval officers. It is well known that stirrup hilt 'fighting swords' were popular in naval context in this early 19th c period. So my questions are" WHY are they termed montmorency? were they designed by someone with that name? when? Why was James Wooley so aligned with French designs etc. ? Were there indeed earlier (1770s) straight blade cavalry swords with this section on blades? were any by Wooley? Could the term montmorency derive from the unit of chausseurs in France? Certainly that could be the case as colloquialisms do tend to come from such associations. Likely the blade form was in use long before Wooley used them etc. and perhaps some other more technical term used? These are my quandaries on this dilemma, and while my search goes on, I'd sure appreciate some other input. Thanks guys. Left : the 1800 fighting saber rt: the Wooley M1788 Attached Images

19th August 2025, 08:54 PM	#3
midelburgo Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 265	If we believe the inscription, this is the oldest Montmorency blade I know of. On one side it says NADIE SE META CONMIGO - AÑO DE 1700 QUE MATARE A QUEIN ME ENFADE QUEIN spell mistake instead for QUIEN Meaning NO ONE MESS WITH ME - YEAR OF 1700 I WILL KILL WHOEVER MAKES ME ANGRY Stilistically I believe the inscription looks rather 1770. I cannot give an opinion about the basket, looking English to me. On the other hand, Spain used a lot of these blades. Often in America. Sometimes they have silver parts in the grip-pommel. In the Halbach (Solingen) advertisement of 1775 there is a Montmorency with inscriptions to Carlos III (check Halbach in the search). Sometimes they are shortened for infantry. George Washington had a Montmorency too. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PiClfS5MfI0 Attached Images Last edited by midelburgo; 19th August 2025 at 09:17 PM.

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19th August 2025, 04:35 PM	#2
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,639	Hi Jim, Here is some info which may be useful. http://vikingsword.com/vb/showthread...ht=montmorency Regards, Norman.

19th August 2025, 09:42 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,547	Thanks very much guys!! Norman that was a great thread, and love those plates (either Aries or Petard) both valuable and hard to find, afford, volumes. Midelburgo, great examples, It seems this type of blade with this section were around from early in 18th c. so we know they found notable use, 'but the pressing question is WHY MONTMORENCY? The name of the design.