My first Nimcha

[TVV]

Originally Posted by fennec

(Sorry here is the picture)

Thank you for posting this sword Khaled. I have always wondered about the origin of this particular type of steel guard with a ring. Your example makes a strong case for an Algerian attribution.

I am attaching the pictures of a sword I have with this type of guard (the blade and hilt are of no help here), followed by an example from the Quai Branly and another from Oriental Arms sold archive.

Regards,
Teodor

[fennec]

Hi Theodor, its a pleasure to enlight as much I can.
You right, it is quite difficult to define a nimcha (especially algerian, that mixed a lot of styles, due to a lot of influence of the algerian fleet at this era, I guess), only by one element, as the blade only, or the hanlde, only, etc... I usually have to combine many points to be sure that a model is algerian, especially for some very "modest" ones, that dont display a lot of particularitis ( a handle shape shared with morocco, a classic guard, a straight sword, no scabbard, etc...).

For yours, not only the guard lead me to an algerian origin, but also the handle. to be "simple", Ive seen those "agressive" shapes of nimcha, only in algeria. Moroccan ones are more "big and round" usually, the handle is not straight, and generally goes larger for some centimeters after the guard. Of course those shapes are also very common in algeria, especially in the ouest (remember that algeria is very big, even in the past, a nimcha close to morocco, should be quite different from one from the east). But those kinds, more "geometric", more agressive, with a "spine" in the pommel (that remember some ones on what I call "boarding algerian nimcha", those ones with an austrian/italian sword, and luxury handles), are very tipical from algeria (and I guess, around Algiers).
Another element for me is the marks on it, those lines running from the guard to the pommel. This is also tipically algerian, and you can even see them on the last picture you shared. For me, this si again like a reminding of those handles with more details, those lines make generally a border between the central part, that could hold some luxury material, and the edges. This is something like a "visual reminding" of this esthethic, in my thought.

Best regards

[TVV]

Fennec, thank you for input. You make a lot of great points. As the biggest country in Africa now, Algeria is so vast that some regional variation is to be expected.

Here is another nimcha, ex Claude, published in his book. The hilt to me looks Moroccan, but Claude classifies it as Algerian.

[Jim McDougall]

It seems there has long been a great deal of confusion on the 'nimcha'.
Setting aside the misnomer of the term itself, the classifications as to where the forms might be attributed has been baffling.

It does seem that the most familiar type without the ring on the guard is typically regarded as Moroccan. However Stone (1934) if I recall, does refer to these as Algerian. It seems that the attribution was based possibly on the broader association with the Malakite rite (if I recall) school of Islam? which transcended Algerian and Moroccan borders of course.

This example of 'ring guard' nimcha I acquired from Artzi about 24 years ago and it was said to be of a batch of 40 varied examples from an armory in Yemen some years before. Then he had noted these had been mounted in Zanzibar and to supply Yemeni forces during the various conflicts years before.
I believe I saw this attribution in the book by Alain Jacob (1985) as well.

In Buttin (1933) of course no such attribution to Zanzibar or specifically to Morocco or Algeria is made, only that these are ARAB sabers.

So if I understand, it appears that my example would be Algerian?
Though I know that there are nimchas attributable to Zanzibar, this ring guard feature appears to not be a factor.

The last image is a Moroccan sa'if (Moroccan markings at forte).

PS.....anyone know where I might find a copy of Eric Claudes book????

[TVV]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

So if I understand, it appears that my example would be Algerian?
Though I know that there are nimchas attributable to Zanzibar, this ring guard feature appears to not be a factor.

Jim, your example is Yemeni.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by TVV

Jim, your example is Yemeni.

Thanks Teodor, I did the unthinkable and reread through the thread. You explained this in your post #10.

[fennec]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

So if I understand, it appears that my example would be Algerian?

For me too it's from zanzibar. Too "big"/large pommel, I mean, no shape at all for the bottom, this is uncommon in algeria. You can also note that quillon wich is along the blade. It has the typical work from those place (zanzibar, but also oman etc), that display another geometry than algerian ones (usally something more round, like the rosebud etc), that looks like an animal head or I dont know (look the attached picture from a luxurious zanzibar nimcha).
The only point that could make it algerian for me, is the straight quillon covering the hand, and the straight shape of the handle, both points that are rare for zanzibar, but not enough to make it algerian.

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

PS.....anyone know where I might find a copy of Eric Claudes book????

Have you try to ask him directly (facebook, etc) ? Or may be can I for you ? I dont know if he still have some. I just dont come here very often so sorry by advance

[fennec]

Originally Posted by TVV

Here is another nimcha, ex Claude, published in his book. The hilt to me looks Moroccan, but Claude classifies it as Algerian.

Hi my friend.
Oh yeah I know it very well, I've even write some lines about it on my book. I've passed some days trying to find a meaning to the "magical square" and other writtings on it, making crosschecks with local algerian believes (well... may be I have to talk about Al Buni once.. or just publish that ****) etc..
So, yeah, for me it is an algerian sword.
First of all the guard, never seen one like that in morocco. Then the sword, more a "navy one", that those straight cavalery used in our neighbours coutry. Of course the writtings on it, that are, for me, also more used in algeria (many many swords wrote that way, or with full sentence.. never or very rarely seen in that "simple way" in morocco).
The hilt also display a pattern (floral shapes with 5 point flowers) that is common in Kabylie, and already used on some other pieces (I'll search exemple as soon as I can). And the shape of the hilt itself, note that little spine on the bottom, and a bit more textured pommel (the part that faces the quillon, its look a bit like the handle of those tourist/mariage little curved flissa). And of course, also the lines on each spine of it, Ive talked about before.
And then the scabbard, also an algerian thing for me... very common in algeria to find those "simple made" scabbard, with just a piece of brass as top and bottom, where morrocan usually make another kind of work, not to say more stylish haha...

[TVV]

When it comes to this type of guard, here is another sword with it and an English hanger blade. That one does look very Moroccan.

[serdar]

Didnt that style with half ring on a side originated from italy? And from them into maroco and algeria?
Below are pictures of italian sword from the end of 14 century with councile of ten marking from private collection, a photo from museum of Florence, and a photo of a sword from Perast, all italian made with tracable and documented history.

[TVV]

Originally Posted by serdar

Didnt that style with half ring on a side originated from italy? And from them into maroco and algeria?
Below are pictures of italian sword from the end of 14 century with councile of ten marking from private collection, a photo from museum of Florence, and a photo of a sword from Perast, all italian made with tracable and documented history.

Yes, the style of guard originated on stortas in Italy, and was then copied by corsairs in North Africa.

[fennec]

Originally Posted by serdar

Didnt that style with half ring on a side originated from italy? And from them into maroco and algeria?
Below are pictures of italian sword from the end of 14 century with councile of ten marking from private collection, a photo from museum of Florence, and a photo of a sword from Perast, all italian made with tracable and documented history.

AGREED ! That what lead my last searches on the subject, that confirms those theories about an italian origin of the nimcha, for its guard, and maybe also the handle shape by inspiration, mix of cultures etc . because actually, nothing POPED in Italy like that... if venetians ans genoese where precursors in many shapes, styles, for blades and also mountings, it is firt of all because of their inspiration BY OTHER cultures they trade with for centuries... so, everything is a "circle"...).

Then, I dont think the nimcha is a direct inspiration like "oh see, those nice italian renessance sword, lets make some cheapest ones"... But more by use. Let me explain. Personnally, I think that nimchas where firstly navy swords (even the modern "meanings" of the term lead to a short sword). I think those are herited from an era where a LOT OF people from every culture, was sometimes fighting each others, sometimes trading, sometimes even attackng other boats together (remember that the algerian fleet, yes, fleet, not "pirates".. haha, actually the most feared in mediteranean see even before ottoman era /many attacks on spain etc/ was with ottomans, much more various, as many european corsairs with european members on the boat). I think that the nimcha is an "improvisation" of making the "perfect tool" for a new kind of war, in a new battlefield (the war : "the corso", the battlefield : "the see", new warfare : "boarding a boat is more interesting than canonning it.. much more money.. etc). And those points are usually what lead to a new weapon in military history, adding to mixity of cultures, external inspiration, or the willing to find how to "defeat" that "external" opponent, etc etc.
SO, for me, the storta, and other kind of italian/autrian/german sword of beginning of renaissance are clearly an inspiration. And there is a lot of chance that those where themselves inspired by some ottoman swords (kilij, pala), that was also inspired by asia (dao etc) etc etc... (stortas and those kind of swords LIKE THE BLADES that was mount on the most ancient algerian navy nimcha, are from Styrie as everyone knows, just in front of ottoman... a reason why Grace became one of the biggest sword production point).

AS ALGERIANS : remember that Kheireddine Barbarrossa the albanian ottoman, became algerian (lol, yeah, mix of cultures, here it is..) by helping algerians against spanish that was destroying the east after the reconquista. We have some engravings/paintings of that man, his brothers, or the first janissaries that came with him, having italian sword like, like falchions, or even rapier style swords, but giving what could be the firts inspiration for nimchas, like thin quillons guards. Here is a picture to illustrate. I know the sword on the picture could look far from a nimcha, but this is same era, same area, and same kind of spirit (noblesman swords) than many others that gives the exact same guard than a nimcha (like italians stortas for ex).

[fennec]

Originally Posted by TVV

When it comes to this type of guard, here is another sword with it and an English hanger blade. That one does look very Moroccan.

Hi mate, and sorry again for the time to answer (dont hesitate to send me an email in case someday you want to ask me something "important", sometimes I'm more reactiv...lol)

Well, it could be, I mean, at first look I would say that, and I was about, but actually I have serious doubt. The only thing that would made it moroccan for me is the origin of the blade, but even those ones where mount on algerian nimcha (trading, or tooken during battles). The hole on the pommel (I know I know, that could look funny as a factor of algerian origin, but this is very reccurent) and the guard lead me more to an algerian one.
Compare your sword to those ones. First picture, that was upper, you see that nimcha, for most of people, this could be a moroccan one, if we had no scabbard. Hopefully it is, and those models are good to proof that those geometry (handle, but also blade shape) was also common in algeria.

Second picture you can see the same blade mount on an algerian sword (typical handle shape, guard quillons a bit shaped like the "algerian" rosebud shape, a possible hole on the pommel that was filled later with that brass flower).

Two others are to illustrate that "flower" decoration scheme I've talked about before, concerning the wooden handle of your navy nimcha (ex Eric). Something very close applied here by koftgari on a flissa dagger. So ovioulsy made in kabyle area (as the scabbards of first picture btw).

[TVV]

Originally Posted by fennec

Hi mate, and sorry again for the time to answer (dont hesitate to send me an email in case someday you want to ask me something "important", sometimes I'm more reactiv...lol)

Well, it could be, I mean, at first look I would say that, and I was about, but actually I have serious doubt. The only thing that would made it moroccan for me is the origin of the blade, but even those ones where mount on algerian nimcha (trading, or tooken during battles). The hole on the pommel (I know I know, that could look funny as a factor of algerian origin, but this is very reccurent) and the guard lead me more to an algerian one.
Compare your sword to those ones. First picture, that was upper, you see that nimcha, for most of people, this could be a moroccan one, if we had no scabbard. Hopefully it is, and those models are good to proof that those geometry (handle, but also blade shape) was also common in algeria.

When looking back at the sword I showed, if you look at the band under the guard, it has floral motives of a style we find on koummya scabbards, hence my Moroccan attribution.

I also would not rely on a scabbard for attribution, as scabbards were replaced more frequently than hilts.