Reproductions

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by serdar

It is very dificult to distinguis very good "reproducition" saber, before i posted a fringia one, as you yourself stated "expert" on that field proclaimed it original, but it was a fake.

I think it is good to post thing you doubt about, if not what is point of forum, this do, this dont....

But as i said, it is to think about if so caled forum "experts" cant identify something, well maybe this forum plumeted already.

The fakers are getting good, they have been producing these for many decades, and they're better than the old days, however, to judge from photos is difficult if not impossible. I have never declared myself or anyone else as 'expert' as I think that designation is too subjective to be applied to anyone other than personal opinion of individuals.

I understand the points of discussion in posting a subject example as to whether it is fake or not, but presumably those acquiring these weapons and handling them personally have enough awareness and expertise to be purchasing weapons in these high end categories in the first place.

This forum has been an excellent place for us to all share examples, discuss them, and above all, LEARN TOGETHER!
Nobody claims to be 'expert' and it is unnecessary to use that term derisively toward those who make the effort to try to facilitate the discussion.

This post was not directed toward you personally, you may have noticed several other posts which feature reproduction weapons, entirely against the scope of forum noted.

I admit I personally try to look for all positive toward each persons weapon posted, and probably try to hard to avoid being blunt or directly derisive, but being placed in awkward position by posting of blatantly obvious subject items makes it difficult.

You seem to have acquired quite a selection of these 'unusual' Eastern European sabers, as you have posted, interesting.

I think overall as a forum, we have done quite well, and your observation quite unwarranted. Just my 'nonexpert'opinion.

[Marcus den toom]

It might be an idea to put some sort of "warranty" label to posts or threads that are recognised as factual and other post as under investigation or discussion?

I also am concerned by the frequent server downtime. Is there a reason why the forum has been down for a number of times the last few months?

Also, i tried to change my password multiple times but the email never reaches me. I am still loged on my mobile phone but this is also a serious issue :/

If there is a monetary reason, i am sure we can manage something together?

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Marcus den toom

It might be an idea to put some sort of "warranty" label to posts or threads that are recognised as factual and other post as under investigation or discussion?

I also am concerned by the frequent server downtime. Is there a reason why the forum has been down for a number of times the last few months?

Also, i tried to change my password multiple times but the email never reaches me. I am still loged on my mobile phone but this is also a serious issue :/

If there is a monetary reason, i am sure we can manage something together?

Thank you Marcus, obviously the intent of the poster is to discover more on identifying and classifying items they acquire, and there are of course many cases where the collector has no idea. However after a certain number of items continue appearing consecutively with the same basic cloud of suspicion things get a bit tiresome.

So far most of these posts have expressed open concern over the character of the item posted so that is not the problem. The idea is to cut down on this type of posts on items that are questionable at the outset, and at worst, being used to test the waters so to speak to get experienced insight into improving modern examples. No accusations but obvious potential for consideration.

Its like the 'I just inherited this' and I was restoring an old house and found this in a wall' ploys that have been well worn on certain other venues.

However it is understandable if someone has acquired something unusual to them, and hopes to have some informed input, that is indeed what we do here. Just hoping to stop the parade of reproduction items. These kinds of commercial products do have other forums where they are discussed with regard to the quality of each manufacturer.

[Ed]

Ahhhh ,,, fakes.

This occupies a special place in my heart, having been duped some number of times.

I suggest that perhaps a subforum entitled "Exposed" be created and if a piece is identified as a fake the entire thread be moved.

I think also that one needs to give the benefit of the doubt freely. I haunt a number of gun collector boards and non-collectors pretty regularly post examples of things that they got while clearing out parents' homes. They sincerely do not know what they have. Sometimes it sounds a bit dodgy but that is sorta the price of having an "expert" forum.

Maybe a forum entitled "What is it?" Those that do not want to engage can then ignore at their pleasure. If the thing is real the thread gets moved.


Anyway, I have been noodling a paper on fakes for some time. I attach it for your amusement. It is not where I want it to be but some might like it.

[Jim McDougall]

Great ideas Ed! I think we all have considerable experiences in the "hall of shame" as we fell prey to clever and innovative 'treasures' which were indeed too good to be true. Still the optimist and romantic in us compelled is to believe the 'stories' which surrounded the item.

I have always felt the best defense, indeed the most powerful weapon to keep us from further being victimized, is KNOWLEDGE, which actually is what these forums are all about. One of the drawbacks is that often, as noted, many do not enter detailed observations so as not to provide 'training data' for those out there concocting these artificial antiquities.

The elephant in the room however, is that of legality, and potential issues with declaring an item 'fake' etc. and to host a venue specifically to display a rogues gallery with examples, while obviously helpful, would unleash nightmarish complications in my opinion.

The only thing we can do is prudently make observations and comparisons with known other examples with provenance noting the differences without direct accusation. As our core of knowledge grows, as it has here in the past years, the 'trolls' will find it less lucrative to enter here as they realize our awareness.

I feel and well know the frustration, plenty of scars !
Nevertheless, well said and thought out ideas, and great attachment! Thanks Ed!

[werecow]

I like the idea of a suspected fakes forum. There's a lot to be learned from comparing forgeries to the real thing. We could call it "The oops box".

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by werecow

I like the idea of a suspected fakes forum. There's a lot to be learned from comparing forgeries to the real thing. We could call it "The oops box".

I think we all agree that we should have an awareness of the many fake items circulating and how to recognize them as compared to authentic antiques.
Perhaps the best way to represent these in discussion is to describe them as 'modern interpretations' so as to avoid inflammatory connotation (despite obviously our frustration toward them) .

It seems over the years, regions such as in Afghanistan's Khyber, the production of 'interpretations' of East India Co. components in producing tribal weapons evolved into a modern industry. These weapons are incredibly similar to the authentic examples, almost indistinguishable.

While most of us in the 'game' many years have learned through experience how to recognize 'interpretations' in handling them, however often when examples are assessed only through photos, as here, it is much harder and I admit to often being fooled by images presented.

The idea of a sub forum to compile these 'misteakes' is compelling, but a bit more complex than it would seem. Still the subject examples remaining in proper context I think serve the purpose.

Learning and awareness are the goals here, so I would say status quo remains, but care in wording and presentation of primary concern.