New Sword Collector Seeking Input

[Jim McDougall]

Seeker, welcome! and thank you for sharing these wonderful rapiers!
It saddens me when 'one of ours' departs, and it is terrifying to think of what will become of ones treasured weapons when the time comes, and without family or provisions, the outcome could be terrible.

This man, as you note, was clearly brilliant and discerning as reflected by the weapons he collected, and I am so glad these people placed these weapons with you. You have wisely retained important examples, and you are doing well to seek out the detailed descriptions and assessments of them.

The photos you provide are clear and detailed, but it is easier to discuss each in separate groups of images of each sword independently, and with dimensions blade lengths, any markings (your views of what they appear to say etc. as in person is better than photos naturally...flashback etc. distorts a lot).

All three of these seem rapiers of first half 17th c. It is hard to put finite dates as forms often carried notably later than the set parameters due to tradition and personal preferences. Also there was notable diffusion of influence.

With the 'seven bar' hilt, often termed 'squelette' (Fr. =skeleton) these are typically Italian or Spanish, but the arms and armor of these countries overlap of course. The style with the bars are most commonly seven bars, but can be 4 or 6. (Norman, 1980, p,141, hilt 68; Valentine 1969, #16 ).

What is unusual with this example is that the style of decoration in the base of the guard with the face etc. to me resembles that of English hilts of early to mid 17th. Also in Norman ("Rapier and Small Sword 1400-1820", ) the pommel form seems to be close to pommels 60,62 which are English, Dutch early-mid 17th c).
It seems almost as if this is a Dutch or English version of these distinct hilts, which would not be surprising, especially if Dutch with the Spanish presence there in these times.

Re: 'running wolf', these blade marks are simply a commonly used device used by Solingen (nee Passau) on blades, and do not apply distinctively to any particular maker or for that matter location of production. There are many variations and possibilities re: blade markings.

Naturally speculation, but a fair starting point, and as always more research may offer more perspective.

The other two very nice as well, but the 'squelette' caught my eye!

[Seeker]

Thank you very much, Sir, for your erudite reply. I had not heard the term "squelette" before. In French, it apparently meeans skeleton, or perhaps skeletal, to make it an adjective. Is the apply applied to all bar or ring style hilts, or only to the 7-ring hilt?

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Seeker

Thank you very much, Sir, for your erudite reply. I had not heard the term "squelette" before. In French, it apparently meeans skeleton, or perhaps skeletal, to make it an adjective. Is the apply applied to all bar or ring style hilts, or only to the 7-ring hilt?

The term 'squelette' is of course a 'colloquial' term loosely applied and presumably is thus occasionally applied perhaps to some of the others of this form even with lesser number of rings. These kinds of terms typically fall into the realm of 'collectors terms' which often add a certain flair to descriptions but are often the bane of students of arms trying to research material.

The anchor is a widely familiar device which actually began usage in Spain, but was later copied in Solingen as they adopted the use of spurious Toledo makers marks during the demise of that center from about mid 17th c.
The Solingen versions IMO seem to have more elaborate crossbars etc, and the one on the English rapier resembles Spanish examples Ive seen from c. 1620 (Atocha shipwreck- Perez?).
Not to say no Solingen examples copied this form, just that most are with more elaborate details.
Toledo blades were highly desirable on these early English rapiers.

[Fernando K]

Hello everyone

Forgive my ignorance. I'm not a collector of edged weapons, but I'd be interested in the experts' opinions on the guard decoration. It's acid etched, file-cut, stamped, or perhaps engraved with burins or chisels (I don't see any details that would allow us to know how it was obtained). Thank you very much.

Sincerely,

[Seeker]

A lot of great information in these most recent posts. Thanks to everyone involved.

[Triarii]

Originally Posted by Fernando K

Hello everyone

Forgive my ignorance. I'm not a collector of edged weapons, but I'd be interested in the experts' opinions on the guard decoration. It's acid etched, file-cut, stamped, or perhaps engraved with burins or chisels (I don't see any details that would allow us to know how it was obtained). Thank you very much.

Sincerely,

They're a combination of drilled, chiselled and filed.

[werecow]

What is unusual with this example is that the style of decoration in the base of the guard with the face etc. to me resembles that of English hilts of early to mid 17th. Also in Norman ("Rapier and Small Sword 1400-1820", ) the pommel form seems to be close to pommels 60,62 which are English, Dutch early-mid 17th c).

That also fits in well with the other rapier with a dish hilt; looks like a cavalier hilt from that era and its motifs are very similar to those of mortuary swords from the English civil war (including the face on the knuckle bow and the decorations on the guard).

[Seeker]

Thank you for that, Werecow. I was aware of the connection between the heads chiseled into the cup (dish?) of the English rapier with mortuary swords, but I had completely failed to notice that same feature on the squelette rapier.

[Triarii]

Straight quillions on the swept hilt tend to indicate the early part of the C17th or late C16th. I have an Italian swept hilt with a similar form. After that they tend to curl in.
The English one is great - English mid C17th is my area of interest and I have not unlike that, but with slightly different quillion ends. They're both sort of what AVB Norman calls a Type 87, though they differ in details, which he says dates to 1635 to 1650.
Whichever one has the anchor symbol at the end of the fuller - that tends to indicate a German made blade.