Pawakan

A. G. Maisey · 13th April 2025, 09:43 PM

Yes, the keris shown in post #2 is classifiable as Segaluh.

Ian · 16th April 2025, 01:17 PM

Alan,

You have written here that there is a specific, perhaps spiritual, "sense" about a keris that the most learned of keris experts can achieve. This "sense" is highly subjective, and may vary from individual to individual regarding a particular keris. Your stories about one of the keris in your possession and the reactions of two individuals with particular "spiritual" gifts raises some interesting cross-cultural similarities with other Malay cultures (defined broadly). I don't wish to sidetrack this thread with discussion of Moro beliefs around spirits (gin) that inhabit their weapons and create spiritual personas for them, but have two specific questions for you about your Indonesian experience.

Does the principle of wanda in a general sense apply to any other Indonesian weapons or just to the keris? Could one of the spiritually gifted individuals you described pick up a parang or pedang and feel a similar spiritual experience, or is this just confined to the keris in Indonesian culture?

Regard,

Ian

A. G. Maisey · 16th April 2025, 11:45 PM

Thank you for this question Ian.

The concept of "wanda" is that the outward appearance of something can create an internal feeling in the viewer.

This can apply to anything.

Let's say you have this really enormous, ugly Rottweiler, people see you walking your dog down the road, and they just automatically cross to the other side.

That's wanda in action, that great big cuddly pussycat of a rotty is everybody's buddy, he's more likely to lick you to death than to bite your leg off.

The operational auditor who walks into your office unannounced might look like Satan Incarnate to you, but actually his hobby is embroidery and one of his greatest joys is flower arranging, weekends he helps out down at the homeless shelter.

Wanda is the internal effect of visual perception. It is not really a spiritual thing.

So yes, it can apply to weapons such as swords & etc.

Ian · 18th April 2025, 04:08 PM

Thank you Alan! Your keris that produced unusual reactions from your spiritually gifted friends was presumably affecting them in a way that was different from wanda. I assume that these two people were not highly trained jn the traditions of the keris, and they were reacting to something other than its appearance.

A. G. Maisey · 18th April 2025, 10:25 PM

Ian, the gentleman who had been a spiritual advisor to President Sukarno held high interest in the keris, he collected keris and had a considerable collection of keris, however he was not an ahli keris, & to my limited knowledge he had only very slight knowledge of the aspects of the keris that underpin keris knowledge, understanding & belief in Central Jawa.

My neighbour was a Hungarian, he had no knowledge of keris at all.

So, it would be fair to assume that something other than what could be seen did generate the results of these men handling that particular keris.

It should be noted that in the case of my neighbour, the keris itself flew violently from his hand as soon as he attempted to pick it up, he did not throw it, or drop it, he attempted to pick it up and it flew and hit the wall --- actually it hit the wall quite hard, my house at that time was an old stone house, the internal walls were hard plaster on stone, the keris hitting the wall chipped the plaster.

What happened with the presidential advisor was that I handed the keris to him, he took it by the hilt, but as soon as he touched the blade he reacted as if he had been burnt and he dropped the keris on the floor.

This keris has no real effect on me at all --- other than as previously described, & that is only a very faint "maybe" reaction, and it has been handled by other people, again with no effect.

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13th April 2025, 09:43 PM	#1
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	Yes, the keris shown in post #2 is classifiable as Segaluh.

16th April 2025, 01:17 PM	#2
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,362	Alan, You have written here that there is a specific, perhaps spiritual, "sense" about a keris that the most learned of keris experts can achieve. This "sense" is highly subjective, and may vary from individual to individual regarding a particular keris. Your stories about one of the keris in your possession and the reactions of two individuals with particular "spiritual" gifts raises some interesting cross-cultural similarities with other Malay cultures (defined broadly). I don't wish to sidetrack this thread with discussion of Moro beliefs around spirits (gin) that inhabit their weapons and create spiritual personas for them, but have two specific questions for you about your Indonesian experience. Does the principle of wanda in a general sense apply to any other Indonesian weapons or just to the keris? Could one of the spiritually gifted individuals you described pick up a parang or pedang and feel a similar spiritual experience, or is this just confined to the keris in Indonesian culture? Regard, Ian

16th April 2025, 11:45 PM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	Thank you for this question Ian. The concept of "wanda" is that the outward appearance of something can create an internal feeling in the viewer. This can apply to anything. Let's say you have this really enormous, ugly Rottweiler, people see you walking your dog down the road, and they just automatically cross to the other side. That's wanda in action, that great big cuddly pussycat of a rotty is everybody's buddy, he's more likely to lick you to death than to bite your leg off. The operational auditor who walks into your office unannounced might look like Satan Incarnate to you, but actually his hobby is embroidery and one of his greatest joys is flower arranging, weekends he helps out down at the homeless shelter. Wanda is the internal effect of visual perception. It is not really a spiritual thing. So yes, it can apply to weapons such as swords & etc.

18th April 2025, 04:08 PM	#4
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,362	Thank you Alan! Your keris that produced unusual reactions from your spiritually gifted friends was presumably affecting them in a way that was different from wanda. I assume that these two people were not highly trained jn the traditions of the keris, and they were reacting to something other than its appearance.

18th April 2025, 10:25 PM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	Ian, the gentleman who had been a spiritual advisor to President Sukarno held high interest in the keris, he collected keris and had a considerable collection of keris, however he was not an ahli keris, & to my limited knowledge he had only very slight knowledge of the aspects of the keris that underpin keris knowledge, understanding & belief in Central Jawa. My neighbour was a Hungarian, he had no knowledge of keris at all. So, it would be fair to assume that something other than what could be seen did generate the results of these men handling that particular keris. It should be noted that in the case of my neighbour, the keris itself flew violently from his hand as soon as he attempted to pick it up, he did not throw it, or drop it, he attempted to pick it up and it flew and hit the wall --- actually it hit the wall quite hard, my house at that time was an old stone house, the internal walls were hard plaster on stone, the keris hitting the wall chipped the plaster. What happened with the presidential advisor was that I handed the keris to him, he took it by the hilt, but as soon as he touched the blade he reacted as if he had been burnt and he dropped the keris on the floor. This keris has no real effect on me at all --- other than as previously described, & that is only a very faint "maybe" reaction, and it has been handled by other people, again with no effect.