Pawakan

JustYS · 10th April 2025, 09:20 AM

Thank you jagabuwana for reviving this topic and thank you Alan for your detailed explanation.

I would like to have further clarification though:

Does it means that if we have two ahli Keris (who both have achieved level 3 understanding) appraising a Keris then they would most likely agree in terms of tangguh, but might have a completely different feeling about the Keris? Or both would still recognize/feel the force of the Keris but the interpretation might differ?

Thank you.

A. G. Maisey · 10th April 2025, 01:07 PM

Yes.

It depends on the human being who is a part of the meeting between keris & human.

It is the human who receives the feeling, the keris remains constant, but the way in which the feeling is transferred depends upon the person.

Everything I wrote about this in my post #38 was taken directly from the notes I made when I was being taught by Pak Parman, it is as he said:- the same man can generate different feelings in other people : the same keris can generate different --- or no --- feelings in other people.

jagabuwana · 11th April 2025, 10:56 PM

Thank you Alan and JustYS.

This has been very helpful, but some central questions are still circling in my mind. I'll return to this in the coming days when time is more permitting and I've thought about how to express my questions in a better way.

A. G. Maisey · 12th April 2025, 12:04 AM

Jaga, if my explanation was inadequate, I apologise for this lack of clarity. I can perhaps understand why this might be so, and possibly a further exploration of the way in which the word "wanda" (wondo) needs to be understood might help.

In my earlier post I wrote this:-

"--- The second thing that must be achieved in level two of understanding is how to detect the feeling generated by a keris."

The word "wanda" is a word that is rarely used in colloquial Javanese, it is a word that is more often found in a literary context, & most particularly in relation to commentary on the wayang.

The way in which it must be understood is relative to the physical appearance of a character in the wayang, & the feeling that this physical appearance generates in the viewer, this physical appearance is then taken as an indicator of the character or nature of the wayang character.

So, for those who understand the wayang, certain characteristics of a wayang character will convey information about the wayang character, the hairstyle, the type of nose, the colour, the pose, all these things & others, will tell the viewer who is educated in the wayang the nature of the wayang character, whether that character is rough, crude, refined, regal, cruel, brave.

But for somebody who has no education in the wayang, all these characteristics mean next to nothing, he has nothing upon which to base his understanding except perhaps a vague general feeling.

Now, when we use the word "wanda" in relation to a keris, we are talking about the feeling that is generated by what the viewer can see, remember, this is a journeyman viewer, he has already perfected his understanding of how to apply the concepts of the tangguh system, now he is trying to understand the possible character of the keris based upon what he can see, not based upon what he thinks he might be able to feel, his education & experience at the point he finds himself at is not yet sufficient for him to truly feel anything with adequate clarity.

So, to repeat:- understanding the wanda of a keris is understanding based upon the physical appearance of the keris.

If the viewer ever progresses to level three of keris understanding, his understanding of the feeling generated by the keris, if it exists at all, will be based upon the feeling of simply being in the presence of the keris, or perhaps of holding the keris but not seeing it. The understanding will be generated by vibration of the keris, not by its appearance.

It should be very clearly understood, that in the opinion of most, if not all, true ahli keris, nobody can expect to arrive at this level three of understanding in the absence of a thorough understanding of level one & level two requirements, & even then, not all keris will generate a vibration.

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10th April 2025, 09:20 AM	#1
JustYS Member Join Date: Apr 2019 Posts: 145	Thank you jagabuwana for reviving this topic and thank you Alan for your detailed explanation. I would like to have further clarification though: Does it means that if we have two ahli Keris (who both have achieved level 3 understanding) appraising a Keris then they would most likely agree in terms of tangguh, but might have a completely different feeling about the Keris? Or both would still recognize/feel the force of the Keris but the interpretation might differ? Thank you.

10th April 2025, 01:07 PM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	Yes. It depends on the human being who is a part of the meeting between keris & human. It is the human who receives the feeling, the keris remains constant, but the way in which the feeling is transferred depends upon the person. Everything I wrote about this in my post #38 was taken directly from the notes I made when I was being taught by Pak Parman, it is as he said:- the same man can generate different feelings in other people : the same keris can generate different --- or no --- feelings in other people.

11th April 2025, 10:56 PM	#3
jagabuwana Member Join Date: Jan 2018 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 290	Thank you Alan and JustYS. This has been very helpful, but some central questions are still circling in my mind. I'll return to this in the coming days when time is more permitting and I've thought about how to express my questions in a better way.

12th April 2025, 12:04 AM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	Jaga, if my explanation was inadequate, I apologise for this lack of clarity. I can perhaps understand why this might be so, and possibly a further exploration of the way in which the word "wanda" (wondo) needs to be understood might help. In my earlier post I wrote this:- "--- The second thing that must be achieved in level two of understanding is how to detect the feeling generated by a keris." The word "wanda" is a word that is rarely used in colloquial Javanese, it is a word that is more often found in a literary context, & most particularly in relation to commentary on the wayang. The way in which it must be understood is relative to the physical appearance of a character in the wayang, & the feeling that this physical appearance generates in the viewer, this physical appearance is then taken as an indicator of the character or nature of the wayang character. So, for those who understand the wayang, certain characteristics of a wayang character will convey information about the wayang character, the hairstyle, the type of nose, the colour, the pose, all these things & others, will tell the viewer who is educated in the wayang the nature of the wayang character, whether that character is rough, crude, refined, regal, cruel, brave. But for somebody who has no education in the wayang, all these characteristics mean next to nothing, he has nothing upon which to base his understanding except perhaps a vague general feeling. Now, when we use the word "wanda" in relation to a keris, we are talking about the feeling that is generated by what the viewer can see, remember, this is a journeyman viewer, he has already perfected his understanding of how to apply the concepts of the tangguh system, now he is trying to understand the possible character of the keris based upon what he can see, not based upon what he thinks he might be able to feel, his education & experience at the point he finds himself at is not yet sufficient for him to truly feel anything with adequate clarity. So, to repeat:- understanding the wanda of a keris is understanding based upon the physical appearance of the keris. If the viewer ever progresses to level three of keris understanding, his understanding of the feeling generated by the keris, if it exists at all, will be based upon the feeling of simply being in the presence of the keris, or perhaps of holding the keris but not seeing it. The understanding will be generated by vibration of the keris, not by its appearance. It should be very clearly understood, that in the opinion of most, if not all, true ahli keris, nobody can expect to arrive at this level three of understanding in the absence of a thorough understanding of level one & level two requirements, & even then, not all keris will generate a vibration.