Moro kampilan (?) Spanish American war era

werecow · 7th April 2025, 12:00 AM

Not a kampilan but a ginunting if I'm not mistaken.

JeffS · 7th April 2025, 12:49 AM

Nice score. Blade certainly looks ginunting-like based on classifications I have learned here. Is it chisel ground? The guard style is not typical for these nor the pins securing the handle but the scabbard, ferrule and dragon would align with that classification. Kino posted an unusual old dragon handled ginunting-like sword with atypical guard. We have also seen some Visayan daggers with similar guard style. They would be more typical of Luzon. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=29866. Can we get a better picture of the dragon?

AHite · 7th April 2025, 01:35 AM

Here's a closer picture of the dragon head. It has mother of pearl inserts for the eyes. I also added a picture of the blade and the markings on the spine. The blade is not chisel grind, not like the talabongs I have in my collection. It has a slight bevel on each side.

Thanks for clarifying the name of this type of sword!

Andrew

JeffS · 7th April 2025, 02:25 AM

Interesting, I only have one Visayan sword with double grind - it may be uncommon. I posted that one previously but it did not draw much conversation. I think that the triple X on spine is fairly common including parallel lines on the sides, but not sure on what look to be Roman tally mark 5's on your example though. It would certainly be interesting if these markings are intended to be numbers. Here is a likely 19C Visayan sword that I have with XXX spine markings. Hope to hear from the experts.

Jim McDougall · 7th April 2025, 04:45 AM

Being completely unfamiliar with Filipino weapons, I have had this example for more years than I can say, always thinking of it as a 'bolo' (no laughing) with that as a catch all term I guess.

It seems to have a resemblance to this posted example IMO. Could this be one of these? Are these indeed Moro? I presume also a Spanish-American war bringback.

The reason I got it was the hilt style with guard had a characteristic similarity to the Spanish colonial espada ancha, and figured it was reflecting influences of those much earlier swords but with Filipino blade.

Jim McDougall · 7th April 2025, 03:33 PM

For those reading I wanted to add this, which is an actual 'KAMPILAN' (I do know this much on Filipino swords) to illustrate the form referred to.
I presume it is Moro, but am aware these were used elsewhere in the archipelagos from the Philippines into Indonesian areas in degree.

As I have understood, the term 'kampilan' may be a term for 'sword' in Filipino dialects which perhaps was used more collectively in earlier times.
When Ferdinand Magellan was killed in altercation with native tribes at Mactan in the Philippines April 27,1521, a period account states he was killed with a 'cutlass' resembling a 'scimitar'. These vague terms seem to have been embellished later using the term 'kampilan' but may have been adjusted using this Filipino term. Modern literature uses this term in noting this event.
Very much an example of how terms for local ethnographic weapon forms can be mistranslated and transliterated causing notable confusion semantically in research.

Battara · 8th April 2025, 12:33 AM

I would place this piece (original) with the dragon head as Visayan, who made other examples like this.

JeffS · 9th April 2025, 09:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Being completely unfamiliar with Filipino weapons, I have had this example for more years than I can say, always thinking of it as a 'bolo' (no laughing) with that as a catch all term I guess.

It seems to have a resemblance to this posted example IMO. Could this be one of these? Are these indeed Moro? I presume also a Spanish-American war bringback.

The reason I got it was the hilt style with guard had a characteristic similarity to the Spanish colonial espada ancha, and figured it was reflecting influences of those much earlier swords but with Filipino blade.

I would love to hear more about it if anyone has insight. How long is the blade? So I guess this would be a revolutionary sword either Philippine Revolution or Philippine American War (likely latter as a bring back) and likely Luzon because of the strong Spanish design influence (Visayas, Moro etc had their own distinct blade culture) as well as the regimented military style of some of the Luzon conflicts. Since it is presumably not a calvary piece, does the length indicate officer use?

Ian · 9th April 2025, 12:38 PM

Hi Jim,

Your sword in post #6 is unlikely to be Visayan. As noted by Sajen already it is more likely from Luzon. There are swords from Cebu that show similar hilts, presumably because it was a significant city with heavy Spanish influence, but I think this is more likely a Luzon sword. The narrow ricasso is unusual for Luzon swords, although we do see that feature on some Bicol swords such as the minasbad. I also have a bat-headed sword from Bicol that has a clipped blade and a narrow "waist" at the ricasso.

Bicol swords and knives seem to be a nexus of Luzon and Visayan styles, and some Bicol blades have chisel grinds. There are other scattered areas in Luzon where chisel ground blades are found, but they are not commonly made on Luzon.

The blade seems also to be unusually long (a measured length would help), and elsewhere on these pages it has been noted several times that during WWII swords of increased length were produced to counter the Japanese katana. If the blade on your sword is 28+ inches in length, then I think it is likely WWII era in manufacture. It is my understanding that swords of that length were rarely (if ever) made in Luzon and the Visayas before WWII. However, xasterix is the one here who can give you the best reading on that issue.

Lastly, the guard. Yes, it does resemble those on some of the espada ancha from Latin America. However, Chinese influence is also a possibility, especially in regard to the D-guard with down-turned quillion.

Regards, Ian.

7th April 2025, 01:35 AM	#3
AHite Member Join Date: Dec 2022 Posts: 60	Here's a closer picture of the dragon head. It has mother of pearl inserts for the eyes. I also added a picture of the blade and the markings on the spine. The blade is not chisel grind, not like the talabongs I have in my collection. It has a slight bevel on each side. Thanks for clarifying the name of this type of sword! Andrew Attached Images

7th April 2025, 02:25 AM	#4
JeffS Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 423	Interesting, I only have one Visayan sword with double grind - it may be uncommon. I posted that one previously but it did not draw much conversation. I think that the triple X on spine is fairly common including parallel lines on the sides, but not sure on what look to be Roman tally mark 5's on your example though. It would certainly be interesting if these markings are intended to be numbers. Here is a likely 19C Visayan sword that I have with XXX spine markings. Hope to hear from the experts. Attached Images Last edited by JeffS; 7th April 2025 at 09:13 AM.

7th April 2025, 04:45 AM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,193	Being completely unfamiliar with Filipino weapons, I have had this example for more years than I can say, always thinking of it as a 'bolo' (no laughing) with that as a catch all term I guess. It seems to have a resemblance to this posted example IMO. Could this be one of these? Are these indeed Moro? I presume also a Spanish-American war bringback. The reason I got it was the hilt style with guard had a characteristic similarity to the Spanish colonial espada ancha, and figured it was reflecting influences of those much earlier swords but with Filipino blade. Attached Images

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7th April 2025, 12:00 AM	#1
werecow Member Join Date: Sep 2021 Location: Leiden, NL Posts: 553	Not a kampilan but a ginunting if I'm not mistaken.

7th April 2025, 12:49 AM	#2
JeffS Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 423	Nice score. Blade certainly looks ginunting-like based on classifications I have learned here. Is it chisel ground? The guard style is not typical for these nor the pins securing the handle but the scabbard, ferrule and dragon would align with that classification. Kino posted an unusual old dragon handled ginunting-like sword with atypical guard. We have also seen some Visayan daggers with similar guard style. They would be more typical of Luzon. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=29866. Can we get a better picture of the dragon?

7th April 2025, 03:33 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,193	Kampilan For those reading I wanted to add this, which is an actual 'KAMPILAN' (I do know this much on Filipino swords) to illustrate the form referred to. I presume it is Moro, but am aware these were used elsewhere in the archipelagos from the Philippines into Indonesian areas in degree. As I have understood, the term 'kampilan' may be a term for 'sword' in Filipino dialects which perhaps was used more collectively in earlier times. When Ferdinand Magellan was killed in altercation with native tribes at Mactan in the Philippines April 27,1521, a period account states he was killed with a 'cutlass' resembling a 'scimitar'. These vague terms seem to have been embellished later using the term 'kampilan' but may have been adjusted using this Filipino term. Modern literature uses this term in noting this event. Very much an example of how terms for local ethnographic weapon forms can be mistranslated and transliterated causing notable confusion semantically in research. Attached Images

8th April 2025, 12:33 AM	#7
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,272	I would place this piece (original) with the dragon head as Visayan, who made other examples like this.

9th April 2025, 12:38 PM	#9
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,362	Hi Jim, Your sword in post #6 is unlikely to be Visayan. As noted by Sajen already it is more likely from Luzon. There are swords from Cebu that show similar hilts, presumably because it was a significant city with heavy Spanish influence, but I think this is more likely a Luzon sword. The narrow ricasso is unusual for Luzon swords, although we do see that feature on some Bicol swords such as the minasbad. I also have a bat-headed sword from Bicol that has a clipped blade and a narrow "waist" at the ricasso. Bicol swords and knives seem to be a nexus of Luzon and Visayan styles, and some Bicol blades have chisel grinds. There are other scattered areas in Luzon where chisel ground blades are found, but they are not commonly made on Luzon. The blade seems also to be unusually long (a measured length would help), and elsewhere on these pages it has been noted several times that during WWII swords of increased length were produced to counter the Japanese katana. If the blade on your sword is 28+ inches in length, then I think it is likely WWII era in manufacture. It is my understanding that swords of that length were rarely (if ever) made in Luzon and the Visayas before WWII. However, xasterix is the one here who can give you the best reading on that issue. Lastly, the guard. Yes, it does resemble those on some of the espada ancha from Latin America. However, Chinese influence is also a possibility, especially in regard to the D-guard with down-turned quillion. Regards, Ian.