Frontier cuirass c. 1720 believed Pueblo Indian in Spanish Style

Jim McDougall · 22nd March 2025, 07:58 PM

I have a posting on the ethnographic forum which is titled 'Frontier Cuirass c.1720' as it has been held to be a Spanish leather (cuir boulli) cuirass for the past 70+ years.
An as yet unfounded claim made by an anonymous detractor has been made that it is Moro (Philippine) in origin based presumably on the resemblance in the decorative motif to okir. There appears to be an example which seems to be an anomaly of Moro rawhide armor (Mabagani) which has elements compellingly similar to those on this armor which appears to be 19th c as most other Moro armor regularly seen.

I wanted to post this here to reach those of you with expertise in these areas and hope that posted here it would be more visible.

I would very much knowing if anyone has seen Moro or other leather armor of this style construction or with such decorative motif.

Thanks very much.
Jim

David · 23rd March 2025, 05:14 PM

Wrong forum for this Jim. I'm moving it to Ethno.

Jim McDougall · 23rd March 2025, 07:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Wrong forum for this Jim. I'm moving it to Ethno.

Thank you David, maybe with title specifying Moro someone with knowledge on these armors might come in here.

Ian · 25th March 2025, 12:46 AM

David, Jim already has a post on this subject in the Ethno Forum, so I'll combine the two just so we don't miss any important comments.

Ian.

Jim McDougall · 26th March 2025, 06:32 PM

This topic has become quite a learning experience for me, as though I have never been much involved in the arms and armor of these regions in the Philippine archipelago and Malaysian, Indonesian etc. I have always admired the posts, discussions of the complexities of the culture and weaponry, as well as the incredible expertise of members here in these fields.

What I have discovered is that there is apparently little knowledge or interest overall in the associated arms items such as the armor or helmets specifically. In searching through archives there are one of two incidental mentions, but seems these refer to late 19th, early 20th century and not of particular interest.
The actual period armors seem 19th century, almost invariably of plates and mail (brass) and can run into high values.

While I am very grateful for the hints and suggestions added here, I am surprised at the fact that so little information exists on the subject of these armors.

In my query my goal was to dispel the wildly placed rebuke by a thus far anonymous party that this rawhide (cuir boulli) armor of Spanish colonial association (Pueblo Indian, c. 1700, Santa Fe N.M.) is in fact Filipino (Moro).

As there seemed little interest (despite over 10,000 views in a week) in response, I thought perhaps the title was not piquing interest, as Spanish colonial topics tend not to draw much attention. Then thinking perhaps if I used the Moro term, and posted it on the keris forum where the interest in these areas is of course prevalent. That of course did not work out.

Sardonically, I began to think, if I had posted this as an extremely rare Moro armor, perhaps there would be a notable rebuttal against such a notion!

As it stands, the only references to Filipino armor I have found in it seems endless searches online and in our archives have only found mostly Moro examples, invariably 19th c. though other classifications such as Bagobo, Bugis etc. seem represented. The ONLY example of rawhide is the one shown by Jose, which belonged to Mabagani (who has long been gone from here, so no particulars are available).
Here I thank Jose again for that valuable example, and Rick and Ian for your insights on the elements and okir decoration, which are compelling.

The fact remains, my example is over 300 years old and of cuir boulli oxhide, the decoration seems to correspond with baroque style decoration carved into the leather. The style is taken from much earlier Spanish brigandine armor and tasseted cuirass' .
The pages showing similar from "Arms and Armor of the Conquistador 1492-1600), Walter Karcheski Jr.., Higgins Armory, 1990, p.3-4. Note the tassets seem to have been attached to the hip at bottom of cuirass. This was apparently Italian as was notable volume of arms and armor used by Spanish forces and expeditionaries.

Added are 'okir' decoration from Moro arms, and there does seem a notable similarity, however in my armor example the elements of decoration are also notable like various Pueblo symbols used in decoration of their material culture. It seems that Indian artist(s) who painted the Segesser paintings (c1726)depicting the stylized armor worn in the tragic battle of 1720 saw fit to specifically include the detail of the device (insignia?) on the tassets of the subject example. Naturally they are not exact, however these types of artworks often carry certain key details, while other detail might be foregone. That is why the inclusion of these devices in the armor seems to indicate a symbolic importance to the Pueblo that exceeded other overall details not included such as the triangular breastplate element and defined tasseting.

Jim McDougall · 28th March 2025, 11:48 PM

Impasse

Ian · 29th March 2025, 07:34 AM

Hi Jim,

Maybe not a total impasse. With regard to leather on Moro weapons or armor, this would have been from local water buffalo. I very much doubt that the Pueblo tribes in America had access to water buffalo for leather. If you can establish what type of leather your example is, then you may have a simple way of confirming or disproving its origin vis-a-vis Moro armor.

You mention ox in your latest post. I don't think ox exist in the Philippines. Are they found in the SW arid regions of what is today the USA? Imported by Spaniards perhaps?

Regards,

Ian.

22nd March 2025, 07:58 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,193	MORO ARMOR I have a posting on the ethnographic forum which is titled 'Frontier Cuirass c.1720' as it has been held to be a Spanish leather (cuir boulli) cuirass for the past 70+ years. An as yet unfounded claim made by an anonymous detractor has been made that it is Moro (Philippine) in origin based presumably on the resemblance in the decorative motif to okir. There appears to be an example which seems to be an anomaly of Moro rawhide armor (Mabagani) which has elements compellingly similar to those on this armor which appears to be 19th c as most other Moro armor regularly seen. I wanted to post this here to reach those of you with expertise in these areas and hope that posted here it would be more visible. I would very much knowing if anyone has seen Moro or other leather armor of this style construction or with such decorative motif. Thanks very much. Jim Attached Images

26th March 2025, 06:32 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,193	This topic has become quite a learning experience for me, as though I have never been much involved in the arms and armor of these regions in the Philippine archipelago and Malaysian, Indonesian etc. I have always admired the posts, discussions of the complexities of the culture and weaponry, as well as the incredible expertise of members here in these fields. What I have discovered is that there is apparently little knowledge or interest overall in the associated arms items such as the armor or helmets specifically. In searching through archives there are one of two incidental mentions, but seems these refer to late 19th, early 20th century and not of particular interest. The actual period armors seem 19th century, almost invariably of plates and mail (brass) and can run into high values. While I am very grateful for the hints and suggestions added here, I am surprised at the fact that so little information exists on the subject of these armors. In my query my goal was to dispel the wildly placed rebuke by a thus far anonymous party that this rawhide (cuir boulli) armor of Spanish colonial association (Pueblo Indian, c. 1700, Santa Fe N.M.) is in fact Filipino (Moro). As there seemed little interest (despite over 10,000 views in a week) in response, I thought perhaps the title was not piquing interest, as Spanish colonial topics tend not to draw much attention. Then thinking perhaps if I used the Moro term, and posted it on the keris forum where the interest in these areas is of course prevalent. That of course did not work out. Sardonically, I began to think, if I had posted this as an extremely rare Moro armor, perhaps there would be a notable rebuttal against such a notion! As it stands, the only references to Filipino armor I have found in it seems endless searches online and in our archives have only found mostly Moro examples, invariably 19th c. though other classifications such as Bagobo, Bugis etc. seem represented. The ONLY example of rawhide is the one shown by Jose, which belonged to Mabagani (who has long been gone from here, so no particulars are available). Here I thank Jose again for that valuable example, and Rick and Ian for your insights on the elements and okir decoration, which are compelling. The fact remains, my example is over 300 years old and of cuir boulli oxhide, the decoration seems to correspond with baroque style decoration carved into the leather. The style is taken from much earlier Spanish brigandine armor and tasseted cuirass' . The pages showing similar from "Arms and Armor of the Conquistador 1492-1600), Walter Karcheski Jr.., Higgins Armory, 1990, p.3-4. Note the tassets seem to have been attached to the hip at bottom of cuirass. This was apparently Italian as was notable volume of arms and armor used by Spanish forces and expeditionaries. Added are 'okir' decoration from Moro arms, and there does seem a notable similarity, however in my armor example the elements of decoration are also notable like various Pueblo symbols used in decoration of their material culture. It seems that Indian artist(s) who painted the Segesser paintings (c1726)depicting the stylized armor worn in the tragic battle of 1720 saw fit to specifically include the detail of the device (insignia?) on the tassets of the subject example. Naturally they are not exact, however these types of artworks often carry certain key details, while other detail might be foregone. That is why the inclusion of these devices in the armor seems to indicate a symbolic importance to the Pueblo that exceeded other overall details not included such as the triangular breastplate element and defined tasseting. Attached Images

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23rd March 2025, 05:14 PM	#2
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,211	Wrong forum for this Jim. I'm moving it to Ethno.

25th March 2025, 12:46 AM	#4
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,362	David, Jim already has a post on this subject in the Ethno Forum, so I'll combine the two just so we don't miss any important comments. Ian.

28th March 2025, 11:48 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,193	Impasse

29th March 2025, 07:34 AM	#7
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,362	Hi Jim, Maybe not a total impasse. With regard to leather on Moro weapons or armor, this would have been from local water buffalo. I very much doubt that the Pueblo tribes in America had access to water buffalo for leather. If you can establish what type of leather your example is, then you may have a simple way of confirming or disproving its origin vis-a-vis Moro armor. You mention ox in your latest post. I don't think ox exist in the Philippines. Are they found in the SW arid regions of what is today the USA? Imported by Spaniards perhaps? Regards, Ian.