Swords in the Mexican Revolution 1910-1921

[Ian]

Guys,

We're drifting into some fairly recent militaria topics, which have been marginally admitted as topics here. I understand the North American and Spanish interest in this topic, but let's not get carried away with mass-produced 20th C military weapons.

Regards, Ian

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Ian

Guys,

We're drifting into some fairly recent militaria topics, which have been marginally admitted as topics here. I understand the North American and Spanish interest in this topic, but let's not get carried away with mass-produced 20th C military weapons.

Regards, Ian

Thank you for the reminder on that Ian, and well noted. It has long been understood that these militaria topics are not well placed in the contexts here, and it is indeed a fine line in this subject.

While one of the aspects of this turbulent period of Mexican history that has intrigued me was as noted, whether Pershing's forces (including Patton) might have used swords in their expedition chasing Villa.

My thinking was that in Mexico, the sword had remained nominally used in various manner, whether military or with revolutionary forces, including the ever prevalent charros. These horsemen had 'saddle swords' derived from the well known espada anchas from colonial times to the often larger versions used well into the early 20th c.
Would then lieutenant Patton, ever the cavalry swordsman have urged these troops to respond in kind, and carried swords intended for battle?

These often crude and often refurbished swords of the 19th century transcended into the early 20th with many areas and factions with Mexicans of these times, and the various types and examples present intriguing context as a topic seldom (if ever) addressed in study of this period.

The attention to the notably mass produced arms 'possibly' used by US forces here is strictly incidental, in reference to possible in kind response to the edged weapons in use nominally by Mexican forces.

I hope we can keep the discussion in these parameters.

[urbanspaceman]

Originally Posted by Ian

Guys,

We're drifting into some fairly recent militaria topics, which have been marginally admitted as topics here. I understand the North American and Spanish interest in this topic, but let's not get carried away with mass-produced 20th C military weapons.

Regards, Ian

We are not exactly knee deep in activity on this site; I would have thought any interesting issues would be made more than welcome. I certainly welcome the opportunity to learn whatever and whenever possible. This material has academic value; the majority of the activity on this site teaches me nothing, which is why, I suspect, as I only attend to the European Armoury, that the life is ebbing out of the forum. Let's not suffocate what breath remains. Keep up the good work Jim.

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you very much Keith!
My main objective with this topic, as with most topics I try to discuss, is to look into historic perspectives that pertain to the weaponry in focus, as well as the contexts in which they were present.

While these forums are primarily with focus toward collectors of varied forms of weapons, the historic aspects of these arms discussed are typically and notably unattended. With collecting, everyone tends to follow 'their own drum' so to speak, that is to be attracted to certain weapon forms and areas, as well as not just typology but artistic and aesthetic values.

While we can categorize, classify and selectively itemize weapons into neatly defined boxes, history itself tends to not be so neatly classified. I always think of trying to place a finite timeline on the 'middle ages' etc.

I think the main objective here as far as the forum discourses are concerned is to avoid descending into the familiar clutter of 'militaria', and the 'issue' type of materials including the regulation forms of standard arms. While 'mass produced' swords and guns are of course nothing new, as arms producers indeed manufactured large quantities of relatively standard weapons, their vintage itself places them more in line with the historic factor. Still, the collecting phenomena dictates what aspects of these each individual finds interesting.

Getting back to this thread, while one of the questions I pondered was whether or not the M1913 Patton sword was ever involved in actions of the US cavalry in pursuit of Pancho Villa.
Meanwhile, on the Mexican side, we know that the vestigial 'culture of the sword' still remained in their ethos. The use of the machete in various forms as well as regulation style military swords was ever present in the many factions of Mexican revolutionaries during these turbulent years.

From many of the earlier espada anchas and cavalry type swords used by the Rurales, the production of various swords often termed 'saddle swords' continued. These were often inscribed with catchy 'dichos' (mottos or phrases_) on the blades, and these are the kinds of swords I am looking for.

Many of these were produced in Oaxaca and Guerrero among others.

[Jim McDougall]

As previously noted, the quasi military frontier police formed by Diaz in the 1860s, the 'Rurales' while heavily armed with revolvers and carbines, still wore cavalry type sabers (typically) through the late 19th c. and certainly into the 20th. What actual use of these took place is hard to say, as accounts of combats, battles etc. simply presume use of guns, and seldom specify if use of sword(s) was part of any action.

The cavalry sabers were typically of the three bar hilt form familiar from US Civil War examples from the M1840, M1860 types. These often had blades marked A.C., which while often presumed to mean 'armeria centrale' for the Mexico City armory, it is suggested these were the initials of Acier Colubuzier, who held the monopoly on imported swords into Mexico.

Often there are the RM stamps representing Republic of Mexico.

While these were used of course from 1870s onward, swords, like most arms in Mexico, remained in use for decades if not generations.
This example reflects the rugged condition from such years of use on the frontier, and the hilt is misshapen possibly from being trampled by a horse?
There is a centavo (date obscured) hammered onto the pommel, perhaps a good luck amulet? or simply decoration.

Note: There are numbers of three bar hilt sabers of British M1821 form which have turned up in Mexican context, usually with an oval cartouche with PDL, Luneschloss of Solingen.

[Jim McDougall]

This unusual example was acquired many years ago, along with the common presumptions which often accompany Spanish colonial swords where little tangible information was available, but fanciful lore was handy.

The complication here was that the hilt form was clearly from very early Spanish hilt styles, which reflected distinct 'Moorish' influences (the 'hand nock' in the grip familiar on Maghrebi nimchas). In this case, the typical espada ancha hilt style of the late 18th century, incorporated with hilt styles from South America and the 'Spanish Main' (Spanish Caribbean, and the ports through Central America and the South American coasts......is joined with those identified as Brazilian.

What is notable here is that the blade appears distinctively like the Brazilian cavalry sabers of 1880, supplied by Coppell of Solingen, which were in turn copied from the British M1853 cavalry sabers (thanks to Midelburgo for these ohservations, 2024).
Interestingly, other 'espadas' from Brazilian context seem to favor 'shell' guards and have the 'Moorish' hand nock.

Many arms for Mexican factions came from South America, though mostly Argentina, but of course certainly Brazil as well. These swords may be presumed from anywhere in the 'Spanish Main' (which prevailed well through 19th c) in Caribbean regions and many arms came to Mexico through the port of Vera Cruz.

The illustration is from "The Lore of Arms", William Reid, Sweden, 1976, p.124, showing the earlier Spanish (Moorish) influences with the hand nock (from nimchas etc). Corrientes was a maker from Toledo, then Madrid, 1730s (Palomares) but likely earlier.

While it would have been exciting for this sword to have been a 'pirate' sword of late 17th c. as suggested when I acquired it years ago, this hilt may still be from the early to mid 18th century as suggested by Reid (1976) and perhaps a heirloom from an old Spanish family in the colonies of New Spain. At some point it was mounted with a newer cavalry blade, and may well have become involved in the actions in the Revolution, perhaps among Zapatista forces. Obviously pure speculation but with these elements of plausibility.

[Jim McDougall]

This is another example concurring with that of previous post, again with the notable shell guard, the serpent appendage coiling around edge seems an affectation popular in hilts of S. Mexico into Central America.
The grip again, with the Moorish 'notch' hand nock from North African hilts (Maghreb).

The blade is marked LYNDON & WIGNALL, sword cutlers at Minerva Works, Fazely St. Birmingham, and in registers 1833-1839.

Swords with these type hilts have been associated with Brazil as one with inscribed blade c. 1850s is known, thus suggesting that provenance.

These again, are known to have been fancifully hawked as 'pirate cutlasses' some years ago, but of course, now that more study of these weapons has been forthcoming, it is good to know the actual identity of these.

As with the previously mentioned sword likely with Brazilian provenance, these type swords may well have entered the theaters of the Mexican Revolution in some capicity, in southern regions.

[Jim McDougall]

This is another example of the cavalry three bar hilt saber, but with heavy, shorter blade which is tempting to associate with the earlier espada anchas, but seems colloquially termed 'cutlass'. While these seem pretty uncommon, they fall into same contexts as the Civil War type cavalry sabers, and have the 'liberty hat' symbol and RM, Republic of Mexico.
It is unclear which forces might have used these, and as yet no direct connection with navy. Regardless, virtually all types of arms of these periods may be viably considered as potentially available for use by virtually any faction.