Zheng Yi Sao Pirate Sword

[Gustav]

Gentlemen, you are discussing an assumed depiction of a person, who was around 74 years old at the time of invention of photography and died 5 years later.

[Ian]

Gustav, this may not be a photograph. It could be a drawing. I did not look at it as a photograph.

[Gustav]

Ian, that looks not like a drawing from before the arriving of photography from SEAsia (attached a drawing from 1836(?)). To be honest, it doesn't look like a drawing or photography from 19th cent., it does have a look of a film still, not older then 1930'ties, perhaps reproduced as a litography.

[Jim McDougall]

Good points guys, estimating weapons from various depictions, whether art or in the scope of photography from its historical standpoint, is sketchy.
The weapons being worn or held by the subject often, if not typically, were not likely owned or used by them.

I agree the nature of this image certainly does not look like it is of the period suggested, which would have been likely late 18th c. at best. ...and most obviously not a photo, or even an artistic rendering as it does not seem characteristic of the styles then.

This is rather like trying to gauge the style of sword used by Blackbeard or other sundry pirates shown in period woodcut images in the book by Johnson(1724). The swords in these images suggest certain styles of swords presumed in use by these pirates, but often with somewhat fanciful depictions of 'scimitar' type blades.

This does not diminish the desire to better estimate what type of weapons would have been used by this important female pirate, but such details would be better served by looking into the weapons used by the various groups of Chinese martial artists and 'river pirates' of late 18th century.

Quite possibly such weapons would have been the 'double' swords or knives termed these days as hudeidao (butterfly knives) which were halved to fit into same scabbard. While considered a 19th century weapon, these were noted in accounts of c.1820s suggesting they had already been in use for some time.
These seem to have been an innovation of Southern Chinese martial arts such as 'Wing Chun' and the Cantonese term for these appears to have been 'wu dip do', as far as I have found.

The 'double sword' concept extended to full length swords such as the jian as well, however these were dual weapons held in separate compartments in a single scabbard. The concept of course was fighting with two weapons, much as in the west in rapier duels with either sword and dagger or two rapiers (known as a 'case').

The best study of these weapons was compiled by Gavin Nugent some years ago, noting the rather clouded character of these recorded historically and that they were popularized in mid to later 19th c.
Perhaps the most reliable presumption of what type weapon would have been used by these pirates in China would have been the more well known daos etc. of the period.

[Ian]

Gustav, you raise some very salient points about the depiction of this woman. A movie frame sounds like a good possibility—taken from a movie about this famed pirate—or advertising for it. In which case the appearance of a strange sword may be artistic license rather than historical fact. Do we know much about the movie industry in China in the 1930s?

[Jim McDougall]

Apparently China had a notable number of films from the silent era into 1930s, even including "The Casebook of Sherlock Holmes".
Reciprocally, the west had a range of films derived from novels written based on Chinese characters such as the 'Charlie Chan' series from Earl Derr Biggers books from 1919 into films from 1926.
The "Mask of Fu Manchu" (from the book by Sax Rohmer) was in 1932.

Naturally while historically significant as far as the study of film production, these movies created unfortunate stereotypes and considerable 'license'.
I have not seen the Chinese films, nor stills etc. but it would be interesting to see what sort of contexts and character they would have used regarding artistic license.

Again, in my view, following representations of arms portrayed in these kinds of contexts is unlikely to be helpful in estimating those used by historic figures in reality. It would be more reliable to study more period accounts pertaining to the persons or groups being examined and the weapons contemporary to them.

I will say however that in more modern times it seems researchers have established a much better benchmark for accuracy in weaponry in use along with other details in many films etc. As always there are exceptions.

[M ELEY]

She was indeed the most successful pirate in recorded history, having a 'flotilla' of over 10,000 pirates! The sketch that Gustav posted from 1830's is a famous depiction. In it, she looks like she has a belabang sword as discussed in Jim's pirate thread. Not unheard of that pirates carried whatever sword met their fancy or that they could lay their hands on. In Annis and May's monumental "Swords for Sea Service", we see documented naval swords in the Maritime Museum that you would not expect, including cavalry swords, basket-hilts, etc. Officers could carry whatever they pleased before specific patterns were introduced in the late 18th. Likewise, pirates even more so could carry whatever they chose, but did tend to copy the sailors of their era.

[kronckew]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

...

Quite possibly such weapons would have been the 'double' swords or knives termed these days as hudeidao (butterfly knives) which were halved to fit into same scabbard. ...

These also came in 'single' sword versions with un-halved grips.


Mine: I think of them as 'Pirate' swords.

[RobT]

Hi All,

They also came as single knives. At 14.625 in (37.1475 cm) long, 2.0625 in (5.23875 cm) wide at the hilt, and almost .25 in (6.35mm) thick (spine at the hilt), my example certainly meets the Crocodile Dundee criteria for a “kniof”

Sincerely,
RobT

PS: The guard is very heavy brass and the hilt is wood.

[Ian]

Rob, Wayne and Jim,

These southern Chinese knives and sword length blades are interesting but do not have the profile of the sword shown in the original post, which resembles a very narrow rapier.

Ian.

[Jim McDougall]

As noted in original response, it does look like a rapier, or more likely small sword/epee blade. Given the very purpose of pirates, to plunder vessels typically European engaged in East Indies trade, the captains often wore small swords of the fashion of the period. As these were known as a mark of authority, which would have been perceived as such, and understandable that a pirate captain, such as Zheng Yi Sao might have posed with such a sword in the manner depicted, if such illustration in period might have been possible.
The fencing glove would have been far fetched as in the period suggested the manner of fencing using this sort of equipment was not yet formalized in any notable degree.

The premise of the discussion has thus become IMO the validity of the illustration as far as accuracy in presuming the type of weapon used by this important pirate figure. While the thin blade illustrated seems as noted a court sword type, the hilt with folding guard (seemingly) is of key notice.

At this point, the course of discussion is primarily what is known as 'historical detection' which is evaluating recorded accounts, iconographic art etc. forensically, and what sources actually were depicted. It has been for me one of the most fascinating areas in studying weapons from these perspectives, and it is great to see others sharing in these views and ideas,.

I regret that Pirate Lady seems to have left as it would have been interesting to know more on what perspectives are involved in her project. Still an intriguing topic.