Early Yataghan for Comments and Discussion

[mariusgmioc]

In my oppinion, this is a recent (very recent) yataghan made in the style of older examples.

I have visited extensively museums in Turkey and haven't encountered any single example of old blade with "Turkish ribbon" pattern weld. In fact, all "Turkish ribbon" pattern welded examples I have seen were assumed from late 19th century blades... but they were most likely 20th century.

[TVV]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

In my oppinion, this is a recent (very recent) yataghan made in the style of older examples.

I have visited extensively museums in Turkey and haven't encountered any single example of old blade with "Turkish ribbon" pattern weld. In fact, all "Turkish ribbon" pattern welded examples I have seen were assumed from late 19th century blades... but they were most likely 20th century.

I know I am being baited, but for the purpose of enhancing the knowledge of the community on this forum, this is a point that will need to be addressed. Before I respond, I just have a few clarifying questions:
1. Of all the yataghans I have presented so far in this thread, is mine the only one that you deem to be of recent manufacture, or does this extend to all the examples, including those sold by Oriental Arms, Sotheby's, etc?
2. A search containing the words "Turkish ribbon" produces 71 threads since the forum moved to VBulletin. The majority contain yataghans with Turkish ribbon blades, with hilts ranging from Algeria through to Balkans to Asia Minor. Are they all modern, 20th century and later creations?
3. Apart from yataghans, there are palas, bichaqs and even kindjals and quaddaras with twistcore rods in the blades. Are those also modern, or is the argument that smiths in the Ottoman Empire and surrounding areas back in the day applied twistcore to pretty much all blades they made except for yataghans?

[gp]

Thank you very much ! Благодаря много! for your fair comment and most interesting questions ...

which, to be honest... I do not have an answer to but like the exchange of minds on this issue as for one there is a very valid point raised and secondly even the literature in and from both the Balkans and Turkey ( how interesting they are ) do not always give conclusive answers.

Nevertheless I find this contribution and pics of yours and your friend's and others most interesting

[gp]

Perhaps a small contribution….

Found some topics containing “ turkish ribbon” in this forum from quite some years ago

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=20828

https://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?p=168074

And a youtube vid, although Zeybek, it mentions the ribbon as well


https://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?p=168074

An interesting item is the difference width’s of the yataghans pictures placed by TVV:
Some do look like the “standard” yataghan, whilst others seem to have a bigger “belly” close to the point.

I have no idea why or what the advantage or purpose of that would be for the weapon:
Does any of you know…?

[mariusgmioc]

Originally Posted by TVV

I know I am being baited, but for the purpose of enhancing the knowledge of the community on this forum, this is a point that will need to be addressed. Before I respond, I just have a few clarifying questions:
1. Of all the yataghans I have presented so far in this thread, is mine the only one that you deem to be of recent manufacture, or does this extend to all the examples, including those sold by Oriental Arms, Sotheby's, etc?
2. A search containing the words "Turkish ribbon" produces 71 threads since the forum moved to VBulletin. The majority contain yataghans with Turkish ribbon blades, with hilts ranging from Algeria through to Balkans to Asia Minor. Are they all modern, 20th century and later creations?
3. Apart from yataghans, there are palas, bichaqs and even kindjals and quaddaras with twistcore rods in the blades. Are those also modern, or is the argument that smiths in the Ottoman Empire and surrounding areas back in the day applied twistcore to pretty much all blades they made except for yataghans?

I do not know about the other examples you mentioned, but I suspect most blades with "Turkish ribbon" to be late 19th century or early 20th century.

It wouldn't be an exception for the most prestigious auction houses to be dead wrong on dating their lots. Museums also...

From practical, mechanical point of view, "Turkish ribbon" pattern weld serves solely decorative reasons and does not contribute positively to the mechanical properties of the blade... on contrary.

But this is only my opinion, based on my own observations and personal research.

Ultimately, people believe what they want to believe.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

I do not know about the other examples you mentioned, but I suspect most blades with "Turkish ribbon" to be late 19th century or early 20th century.

It wouldn't be an exception for the most prestigious auction houses to be dead wrong on dating their lots. Museums also...

From practical, mechanical point of view, "Turkish ribbon" pattern weld serves solely decorative reasons and does not contribute positively to the mechanical properties of the blade... on contrary.

But this is only my opinion, based on my own observations and personal research.

Ultimately, people believe what they want to believe.

Hello Marius,

I don't have an opinion myself on the subject but I know that everybody can be deadly wrong, also so called experts.
I miss a few words in your statement: "I could be wrong!"
I've noticed every time again that people put their personal opinion as a fact. I am careful with such statements, my two cents!

Regards,
Detlef

[Gustav]

The earliest dated yataghan with twisted rod pattern (Turkish ribbon) to my knowledge is from 1592. Around this date twisted rod pattern appears also in Asia and SEAsia.

[TVV]

Everyone is entitled to an opinion - it would not be a forum otherwise. And everyone reading this thread can form their own opinion based on the factual evidence presented both ways.

There are numerous examples of blades with rows of Turkish ribbon in this forum, on the internet, in museums and published in books. They are far too many to even attempt to list here. Then there are also numerous early Ottoman pattern welded barrels on firearms.

Interestingly enough, pattern welded blades also exist in Balkan folklore as for example "сабя диплянка" (sabya diplyanka), which in Bulgarian means "saber with folds" or "ribbon saber". This is different from сабя дамаскиня (sabya damaskinya), or Damascus sword, which would refer to one made of wootz. I believe there is a song about Krali Marko, a popular hero throughout the Balkans, and his fight with Musa Kesedzija, in which Marko shatters Musa's damaskinya with his diplyanka.

Here is an excerpt from a Bulgarian folk song about St. George fighting a "ламя" (lamya), which is a 3-headed Hydra like creature, which references pattern welded sabers twice:

че си зема сабя диплянка, (and he took his diplyanka)
сабя диплянка с дванайсет дипли (saber with twelve ribbons)

Разсърди се свети Георги, (St. George got angry)
че си извади сабя диплянка, (he pulled out his diplyanka saber)
че й пресече дор три глави, (and cut off all her three heads)

It is fairly obvious that the song is referencing a blade with rows of Turkish ribbon, especially in the part that goes into details such as the number of layers, in this case 12. The presence of such blades into folk songs would suggest that they were valued and predate the late 19th century.

GP's question on blade form is a good one. The examples with a widening toward the tip look similar to the machairas and falcattas of antiquity, and probably handle similarly. I am not a practitioner of HEMA, Kali or any other martial arts, so maybe someone with such a background can comment more on this.

An alternative explanation may have to do with these earlier yataghans being derived from Balkan utility knives, such as the shepherds' knives in Bulgaria, which are shorter and wider compared to the longer and more elegant blades into which yataghans ultimately evolved.

Here are some more examples. The first one is from the Bavarian Army Museum in Ingolstadt. It is interesting to see the rings on the scabbard for a baldric:


Then there is one published in the recent Gold and Damascus catalogue, # 75, with a long 80 cm blade and nine layers of twistcore:

[gp]

Originally Posted by TVV

I believe there is a song about Krali Marko, a popular hero throughout the Balkans, and his fight with Musa Kesedzija, in which Marko shatters Musa's damaskinya with his diplyanka.

Attachment 241815

for those interested, some nice songs from the Balkan about King Marko / Krali - Kralj Marko

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qv3Renv5eyg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BcLG_EnZldY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6W39VIuTKOg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-jj5tEXBfUs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P_bMjAmEK24



some more info on the man:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D5ioxYmEaCU
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince_Marko

Last but not least, thank you Teodor for the above info. It opens up quite some new perspective(s) and information.
As for martial arts; in my youth I practised the Indonesian Pencak Silat Setiah Hati but the weapons we used,
differ completley from these yataghans, hence my curiousity but also kind of "ingnorance" how they are used.
I can only tell like in my reply to Detlev how they feel in my hand and swinging around but that doesn't make me a specialist at all, au contraire ...☺

What fascinates me is the similarity with quite some weapons ( predecessors perhaps ? ) of the swords type of weapons in the region from the ancient times...5 -4 BC
Looking at these, more than 2500 years ago, it is interesting to know how these evolved and how they migh or might not be related to the yataghans we are know discussing...