Where's the Wootz?

[Interested Party]

I think you have seen this or have processed the information from other sources https://youtu.be/OP8PCkcBZU4. Do minutes roughly 35-40 address some of your basic questions? While 38:44 https://youtu.be/OP8PCkcBZU4?t=2324 might be the heart of the issue? They are calling dendritic steel what many in the forum call crystalline wootz, and I believe other have called sham. Of course it could all be BS. I got sucked in by an English language summary of Anasoff that my grandfather gave me when I was 23 and have not forgotten the lesson of not believing everything that I read

Did you read Ann Feuerbach on Central Asian Crucible Steel, 2002? Rivkin has a nice summary in his Caucasian Arms book as well. I seem to remember lengthy debates in the forum archives as well.

Speaking about being retired I need to head off to work. Interesting topic.

[urbanspaceman]

Thank-you for those links, it is much appreciated.
I will continue this discussion tomorrow as I am needing my bed right now,

[urbanspaceman]

Wootz is wootz, regardless of where it comes from; I think that has now been firmly established thanks to modern blacksmiths replicating the formula and techniques.
Damascus means simply: 'Made in Damascus' and nothing more, but also allows for it to be wootz.
Coming back to my question: "Was wootz ever produced in the Middle East"?
Watching the video of Al and John after many years (thank-you again Interested Party from the Sierras) it is stated early on in the documentary (4:12) and I quote: "…However, the majority of wootz……came mostly from India. Bars of wootz were imported from India, probably traded in the markets of Damascus…"
This is the history I have always assumed was accurate after having watched that video years ago (six to be precise) then slowly becoming more and more perplexed as I absorbed all the subsequent takes on the issue, but now...
Al achieved his success using Jordanian dendrite ore from a mine seriously guarded by Saladin, and the site of many forges and crucible discoveries recently; which almost certainly means that wootz was being produced there.
Perhaps this was the only source of suitable ore in the wider area.
It would probably not have been accessible to German blacksmiths. I don't know enough history of the Christian Crusades to establish if this was the case.
Incidentally: my uncertainty regarding the inclusion of glass in the crucible is well founded, because, I realise, (better late than never) glass was probably not a readily disposable commodity 400 years bCe. Or was it?

[Interested Party]

Originally Posted by urbanspaceman

Perhaps this was the only source of suitable ore in the wider area.
It would probably not have been accessible to German blacksmiths. I don't know enough history of the Christian Crusades to establish if this was the case.
Incidentally: my uncertainty regarding the inclusion of glass in the crucible is well founded, because, I realise, (better late than never) glass was probably not a readily disposable commodity 400 years bCe. Or was it?

Here is another Al Pendray link https://youtu.be/RDyU-15fzog?t=469 speaking about a carbide former and thermocycling rather than a quench. 7:49-10:25 They say 0.005 Vanadium needs to be present in the ore. So yes, that would reduce the number of iron deposits that were viable for this process. Glass had been around 3000 years by 400 bce. A tradeable commodity. I'm sorry I do not have any more pertinent information to your search.

I have been collecting iron rich sands when I find them at work. Basically they are fist sized chunks of rust. When I get about 90 kilos I would like to build a blast furnace and see what happens.

[urbanspaceman]

Saladin considered the source of the miracle metal so important he built a castle to guard the mine. What I meant when I said "the Germans would probably not have access to it" was the mine and its forges not the iron ore.
Solingen has always had access to ore with a vanadium content.
Birmingham didn't, incidentally, until they could get Oregrounds. Hence, crap swords all through the Middle Ages right up to the 1700s when Germans migrated there from Shotley Bridge and eventually taught us Brits a thing or two.
Still thinking about why Solingen never used the Crucible method - assuming they had learned the secrets from Damascus smiths – was it perhaps achieving suitably high temperatures. How did the Middle Eastern smiths achieve this?
I've been busy today but I will get stuck into studying those additional sources tomorrow; too tired now.

[urbanspaceman]

'The Secrets of Wootz Damascus Steel'
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OP8P...ist=WL&index=1
I have now twice watched this brilliant documentary from six years ago, and realised that, while I may have retained odds and ends of details, the full story had become blurred. The business of the glass, for instance, is a perfect example.
Up to now, in my opinion, this must be one of the best introductions to the history and science of Wootz, and I would seriously suggest anyone with a passing interest in the history of sword-blade making devote an hour to watching it.
It pretty much wraps up this thread.
Of course, YouTube is full of recent takes on the issue, and I – again – warn you not to delve any deeper unless you have plenty time to spare.
My thanks to our 'Interested Party' for providing this valuable research material.

[Ian]

I would strongly recommend searching this site for answers to questions about wootz. The Ethnographic Forum has several excellent threads on the subject. Anything that Dr Ann Feuerbach has written on these Forums is well worth careful consideration. Her PhD and subsequent work has been on wootz. She has an article on this subject on the Vikingsword home page (click on the Viking sword at the top of this page). In this article she states:

"So-called “watered” or “damascus” steel objects were made of crucible steel. Crucible steel was a specific method of steel making and it was only produced in certain areas. Despite the common use of the term “damascus”, there is no evidence that it was ever produced in Damascus, Syria (Elgood, 1994, 103-108), but rather in various locations in India, Sri Lanka, Central Asia and Persia. Its appearance in other locations was due to trade or booty. Among evidence for the trade in finished products, there is also evidence for trade in intermediate products including ingots and steel bars, destined to be forged into shape and decorated in different places to reflect local taste and use of the consumer.

I favor Ann's opinion about wootz over anything you might find on You Tube. Also, there has been considerable debate about the quality of modern crucible steel and its relation to traditional wootz. The consensus seems to be that "modern wootz" is not the same as traditional wootz. You can find these discussions also on the Ethnographic Forum pages.