Where's the Wootz?

[Interested Party]

There used to be some interesting videos of Al Pendray and John Verhoeven using ore from Damascus area and crucible technique assisted by local smiths to recreate crucible steel.

Has anyone mentioned the local variances in ores effecting the final outcome of the crystalline structure?

[urbanspaceman]

I remember seeing a lengthy documentary quite a few years back about Al and John making wootz: it was mesmerising; the more so because I had not yet begun my Shotley Bridge odyssey and knew nothing about arms, armour or metallurgy.
I have not yet found it on Youtube although there is a superb video featuring Al that is easy to come across if you type wootz and his name into the search engine; this will bring up an endless number of additional videos on wootz (and blade metallurgy)... as I said, take a week off work.
Equally, there are many of those videos regarding steel composition - and iron too.
Despite sending smiths over to the Middle East during the Christian Crusades, to steal the secrets, the Solingen blacksmiths have never used the Crucible method, which makes me suspicious about it ever being used in the Middle East, which is what prompted my question.
The local ore that was used in Remscheid is significantly responsible for the blade quality output from Solingen: breakdowns of ore content by location have been published extensively. The other important factor responsible for the high grade of blade output from Solingen, and Hounslow, Shotley Bridge, Klingenthal et al. is the specialisation system, where separate guilds (usually family based) performed only one process/stage in blade production; and considering it had been going-on for 2,000 years, they had definitely mastered the arts. Forging was, of course, the "Black Art"... worldwide actually, as I'm sure everyone is aware.

[urbanspaceman]

There has been much consideration over the years/decades regarding the ending of fine blade production in Damascus, with the predominant reasons considered being the loss of the blacksmith's secrets as families died out, but also the depleting of the necessary local ores.
I would be interested to learn what research has been done about this.

[Interested Party]

I think you have seen this or have processed the information from other sources https://youtu.be/OP8PCkcBZU4. Do minutes roughly 35-40 address some of your basic questions? While 38:44 https://youtu.be/OP8PCkcBZU4?t=2324 might be the heart of the issue? They are calling dendritic steel what many in the forum call crystalline wootz, and I believe other have called sham. Of course it could all be BS. I got sucked in by an English language summary of Anasoff that my grandfather gave me when I was 23 and have not forgotten the lesson of not believing everything that I read

Did you read Ann Feuerbach on Central Asian Crucible Steel, 2002? Rivkin has a nice summary in his Caucasian Arms book as well. I seem to remember lengthy debates in the forum archives as well.

Speaking about being retired I need to head off to work. Interesting topic.

[urbanspaceman]

Thank-you for those links, it is much appreciated.
I will continue this discussion tomorrow as I am needing my bed right now,

[urbanspaceman]

Wootz is wootz, regardless of where it comes from; I think that has now been firmly established thanks to modern blacksmiths replicating the formula and techniques.
Damascus means simply: 'Made in Damascus' and nothing more, but also allows for it to be wootz.
Coming back to my question: "Was wootz ever produced in the Middle East"?
Watching the video of Al and John after many years (thank-you again Interested Party from the Sierras) it is stated early on in the documentary (4:12) and I quote: "…However, the majority of wootz……came mostly from India. Bars of wootz were imported from India, probably traded in the markets of Damascus…"
This is the history I have always assumed was accurate after having watched that video years ago (six to be precise) then slowly becoming more and more perplexed as I absorbed all the subsequent takes on the issue, but now...
Al achieved his success using Jordanian dendrite ore from a mine seriously guarded by Saladin, and the site of many forges and crucible discoveries recently; which almost certainly means that wootz was being produced there.
Perhaps this was the only source of suitable ore in the wider area.
It would probably not have been accessible to German blacksmiths. I don't know enough history of the Christian Crusades to establish if this was the case.
Incidentally: my uncertainty regarding the inclusion of glass in the crucible is well founded, because, I realise, (better late than never) glass was probably not a readily disposable commodity 400 years bCe. Or was it?

[Interested Party]

Originally Posted by urbanspaceman

Perhaps this was the only source of suitable ore in the wider area.
It would probably not have been accessible to German blacksmiths. I don't know enough history of the Christian Crusades to establish if this was the case.
Incidentally: my uncertainty regarding the inclusion of glass in the crucible is well founded, because, I realise, (better late than never) glass was probably not a readily disposable commodity 400 years bCe. Or was it?

Here is another Al Pendray link https://youtu.be/RDyU-15fzog?t=469 speaking about a carbide former and thermocycling rather than a quench. 7:49-10:25 They say 0.005 Vanadium needs to be present in the ore. So yes, that would reduce the number of iron deposits that were viable for this process. Glass had been around 3000 years by 400 bce. A tradeable commodity. I'm sorry I do not have any more pertinent information to your search.

I have been collecting iron rich sands when I find them at work. Basically they are fist sized chunks of rust. When I get about 90 kilos I would like to build a blast furnace and see what happens.