New Keris - It Spoke to me and said Help - Now What??

Alam Shah · 16th July 2006, 05:10 AM

Blade-wise, it looks more like a Straits Bugis blade. But then, the Bugis did move quite a bit within the Malay Archipelago that it had influenced Sumatra, Peninsular Malay and Riau blade forms. A subtle clue that could tell them apart is the blade materials used. The cross-section and some minor details can assist too but not definitively. It had been discussed before that, to classify the breakdown by region is near impossible due to the mix and match across the archipelago.

Mudi · 16th July 2006, 08:45 AM

Yes I agree much confusion keris Sumatra and keris Bugis. This keris from Pak Sabertasche is Sumatra and not Bugis. Second keris is keris Bali. Pak BluErf say

Actually, its the dress that differentiates the Sumatran Bugis from the Sulawesi Bugis.

Sorry but no thing like Sumatran Bugis. Bugis only south Sulawesi people.

Sorry also I not agree with picture words

1st pic - Sumatran/Straits Bugis
2nd pic - Another Sumatran/Straits Bugis
3rd pic - Sulawesi Bugis
4th pic - Sulawesi (Buton) Bugis

All these keris from Sumatra. No keris here Bugis.

If I make problem I am sorry. For me no mistake keris Bugis asli with keris Sumatra asli. They are cousins family but enough difference to see. OK to not believe what I say. Ask someone else from Indonesia that know keris what they say.

BluErf · 16th July 2006, 12:48 PM

The Bugis were originally from South Sulawesi, and their cousins were the Toraja people, who had actually the closest linguistic links with the Bugis, and the Makassar people, who shared the closest physical proximity with the Bugis so much so that many people used the words "Makassarese" and "Bugis" interchangeably. Though some people may have read that the Makassarese from Goa were constantly fighting with the Bugis from Bone for supremacy, sometimes in league with other Bugis kingdoms who do not want a strong Bone dominance over their kingdoms.

If I remember correctly, in 1669, the Dutch destroyed the Goa power and turned it into a Dutch controlled port, which is part of their monopolistic trade network in spices and ther natural materials of the archipelago. From that date onwards, the spread across the archipelago, creating a Bugis diaspora, especially in the Western side of the archipelago, since the Eastern side near the Maluku islands were controlled by the Dutch.

The Bugis featured heavily in court intrigues and politics on the Malay Peninsula and on Sumatra. They can be found on the Eastern side of Sumatra, all the way up to Acheh. Some Bugis went to Kalimantan, even before the fall of Goa. Some Bugis even went as far as Papua and Cambodia.

The Johor-Riau empire was half Malay, half Bugis, with a Malay Sultan and a Bugis YTM (Yang diperTuan Muda, or Young Lord) who effectively controlled the Bugis half of the Kingdom. Riau can probably be considered part of Sumatra. The Bugis also established themselves in the Malayan states of Johore, Selangor (the Sultans there are both Bugis), and with strong influence in Kedah and Perak, possibly spilling into Terengganu. And of course, we have Bugis people in Singapore; some of our collector friends here are proudly Bugis.

The Bugis diaspora meant that there was a general division of the Sulawesi Bugis (which in itself had lots of sub-divisions), and the "Straits Bugis" who established themselves along the coasts of the Straits of Melaka. Bugis keris forging techniques infused itself well in the areas where they are found. In the South Malayan states, you would find more Bugis-type blades and the more North one travels, other non-Bugis forms start to appear (the most famous being the keris Pandai Saras and carita and melela kerises which probably have Javanese ancestry, but that is another discussion in itself.).

Here's an interesting read:

http://www.sabrizain.org/malaya/dutch3.htm

Mudi · 16th July 2006, 12:58 PM

Pak BluErf many thanks for what you write. I enjoy reading very much.

BluErf · 16th July 2006, 01:00 PM

These are good resources too:

Description of the Royal family of Riau
http://4dw.net/royalark/Indonesia/riau.htm

Description of the Royal family of Lingga
http://www.4dw.net/royalark/Indonesia/lingga.htm

Description of the Royal family of Selangor
http://www.4dw.net/royalark/Malaysia/selangor.htm

Description of the Royal family of Johore
http://www.4dw.net/royalark/Malaysia/johor2.htm

BluErf · 16th July 2006, 01:09 PM

For the Johore Royal family, might be better to start at this page:

http://www.4dw.net/royalark/Malaysia/johor4.htm

BluErf · 16th July 2006, 01:34 PM

In the previous post, the page describes the first sharing of power between the Malays and the Bugis in 1722 when the Minangkabau pretender to the Johore throne was defeated and chased back to Sumatra where he continued to fight the Bugis.

Then finally in 1855, Johore was ceded to the Bugis Temenggong Ibrahim, from whom the the current Sultan is descended from.

http://www.4dw.net/royalark/Malaysia/johor9.htm

Rick · 16th July 2006, 02:14 PM

Thank you Gentlemen ; I'm glad I asked the question .

Rick · 16th July 2006, 08:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mudi

Yes I agree much confusion keris Sumatra and keris Bugis. This keris from Pak Sabertasche is Sumatra and not Bugis. Second keris is keris Bali. Pak BluErf say

Actually, its the dress that differentiates the Sumatran Bugis from the Sulawesi Bugis.

Sorry but no thing like Sumatran Bugis. Bugis only south Sulawesi people.

Sorry also I not agree with picture words

1st pic - Sumatran/Straits Bugis
2nd pic - Another Sumatran/Straits Bugis
3rd pic - Sulawesi Bugis
4th pic - Sulawesi (Buton) Bugis

All these keris from Sumatra. No keris here Bugis.

Pak Mudi , if I might ask ; would you please show us a picture of a Bugis keris that fits your definition ?
I would be most interested to see .

Greg , let us know how the BBQ removal attempt works out .

I'm thinking of trying boiling water to get the heat up into the pesi ; I have a Sumatra Minang keris with a stubborn ukiran much like yours .

16th July 2006, 05:10 AM	#1
Alam Shah Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,248	Blade-wise, it looks more like a Straits Bugis blade. But then, the Bugis did move quite a bit within the Malay Archipelago that it had influenced Sumatra, Peninsular Malay and Riau blade forms. A subtle clue that could tell them apart is the blade materials used. The cross-section and some minor details can assist too but not definitively. It had been discussed before that, to classify the breakdown by region is near impossible due to the mix and match across the archipelago. Last edited by Alam Shah; 16th July 2006 at 03:39 PM. Reason: remove link... (simplify)

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16th July 2006, 08:45 AM	#2
Mudi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Makassar, (Ujung Pandang), Sulawesi, Indonesia Posts: 38	Yes I agree much confusion keris Sumatra and keris Bugis. This keris from Pak Sabertasche is Sumatra and not Bugis. Second keris is keris Bali. Pak BluErf say Actually, its the dress that differentiates the Sumatran Bugis from the Sulawesi Bugis. Sorry but no thing like Sumatran Bugis. Bugis only south Sulawesi people. Sorry also I not agree with picture words 1st pic - Sumatran/Straits Bugis 2nd pic - Another Sumatran/Straits Bugis 3rd pic - Sulawesi Bugis 4th pic - Sulawesi (Buton) Bugis All these keris from Sumatra. No keris here Bugis. If I make problem I am sorry. For me no mistake keris Bugis asli with keris Sumatra asli. They are cousins family but enough difference to see. OK to not believe what I say. Ask someone else from Indonesia that know keris what they say.

16th July 2006, 12:48 PM	#3
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	The Bugis were originally from South Sulawesi, and their cousins were the Toraja people, who had actually the closest linguistic links with the Bugis, and the Makassar people, who shared the closest physical proximity with the Bugis so much so that many people used the words "Makassarese" and "Bugis" interchangeably. Though some people may have read that the Makassarese from Goa were constantly fighting with the Bugis from Bone for supremacy, sometimes in league with other Bugis kingdoms who do not want a strong Bone dominance over their kingdoms. If I remember correctly, in 1669, the Dutch destroyed the Goa power and turned it into a Dutch controlled port, which is part of their monopolistic trade network in spices and ther natural materials of the archipelago. From that date onwards, the spread across the archipelago, creating a Bugis diaspora, especially in the Western side of the archipelago, since the Eastern side near the Maluku islands were controlled by the Dutch. The Bugis featured heavily in court intrigues and politics on the Malay Peninsula and on Sumatra. They can be found on the Eastern side of Sumatra, all the way up to Acheh. Some Bugis went to Kalimantan, even before the fall of Goa. Some Bugis even went as far as Papua and Cambodia. The Johor-Riau empire was half Malay, half Bugis, with a Malay Sultan and a Bugis YTM (Yang diperTuan Muda, or Young Lord) who effectively controlled the Bugis half of the Kingdom. Riau can probably be considered part of Sumatra. The Bugis also established themselves in the Malayan states of Johore, Selangor (the Sultans there are both Bugis), and with strong influence in Kedah and Perak, possibly spilling into Terengganu. And of course, we have Bugis people in Singapore; some of our collector friends here are proudly Bugis. The Bugis diaspora meant that there was a general division of the Sulawesi Bugis (which in itself had lots of sub-divisions), and the "Straits Bugis" who established themselves along the coasts of the Straits of Melaka. Bugis keris forging techniques infused itself well in the areas where they are found. In the South Malayan states, you would find more Bugis-type blades and the more North one travels, other non-Bugis forms start to appear (the most famous being the keris Pandai Saras and carita and melela kerises which probably have Javanese ancestry, but that is another discussion in itself.). Here's an interesting read: http://www.sabrizain.org/malaya/dutch3.htm

16th July 2006, 12:58 PM	#4
Mudi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Makassar, (Ujung Pandang), Sulawesi, Indonesia Posts: 38	Pak BluErf many thanks for what you write. I enjoy reading very much.

16th July 2006, 01:00 PM	#5
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	These are good resources too: Description of the Royal family of Riau http://4dw.net/royalark/Indonesia/riau.htm Description of the Royal family of Lingga http://www.4dw.net/royalark/Indonesia/lingga.htm Description of the Royal family of Selangor http://www.4dw.net/royalark/Malaysia/selangor.htm Description of the Royal family of Johore http://www.4dw.net/royalark/Malaysia/johor2.htm

16th July 2006, 01:09 PM	#6
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	For the Johore Royal family, might be better to start at this page: http://www.4dw.net/royalark/Malaysia/johor4.htm

16th July 2006, 01:34 PM	#7
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	In the previous post, the page describes the first sharing of power between the Malays and the Bugis in 1722 when the Minangkabau pretender to the Johore throne was defeated and chased back to Sumatra where he continued to fight the Bugis. Then finally in 1855, Johore was ceded to the Bugis Temenggong Ibrahim, from whom the the current Sultan is descended from. http://www.4dw.net/royalark/Malaysia/johor9.htm

16th July 2006, 02:14 PM	#8
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,336	Thank you Gentlemen ; I'm glad I asked the question .