A different Pamor which is not folded but pasted

[Gustav]

This is not a joint between two twists, this is a joint line between two twisted bars.

[Gustav]

Just a few observations using one picture.

In the overall view picture of the blade I have marked 4 places, where we see, how the frequencies of segments (defined by gedhegan work or by twists, or by whatewer) are becoming wider towards the middle (and afterwards even more wider toward the tip, outside this picture).

This is not a picture we would expect to have of a Gedhegan work, which is done on a cold blade already forged out, and where the frequency between places, where surface is manupulated, is kept more even,- or would be even reversed - with bigger spacings on Sorsoran, becoming narrower up the blade.

On a blade made with a Pamor of twisted bar(s) we would normally have that, what is the case here - narrow frequency on Sorsoran, which becomes bigger and bigger up the blade - because the Pamor is forged out together with the hot blade. Of course an experienced smith, or let's say, smith, who cares about an "as eaven as possible" appearance of a twisted bar Pamor, works against this occurence - to have a pattern with more eaven frequencies.

I also don't see classic twist joint features on this blade, but there are at least two places in this one picture, where it comes quite close to these (marked by blue arrows in the cutout pictures; the pictures with blue marked areas show the borders between possible twists, in this case the narrow frequencies close the base of blade). As I have said, Odo-Odo can disturb the appearance of a twisted bar heavily, as does Sangling here and there - the thinness of Pamor layers in this case goes into a small part of a millimeter at some places.

[A. G. Maisey]

Gustav before I try to understand how to respond to your most recent post I need to know what you mean by "gedhegan work". The root is "gedheg", or "gedeg", or "gedek". In Bahasa Indonesia this is a panel of woven bambu, in Javanese it also means this, but it also means to shake your head when you disagree with something, and it means to collaborate. The meanings are of course contextual.

I have looked at Haryoguritno and he gives "gedhagen" a meaning that agrees with what JustYS has said some salesmen use to refer to "nginden" work. However, this is not a usage I have encountered in Solo.

So could you please confirm that by "gedhagen" you mean what I know as "nginden" and what I refer to in English as "chatoyant", that is that a basic but dense wos wutah pamor is indented or cut in a series of straight lines and then forged flat, the result being to create a series of lines in the pamor that are shadow-like?

Thanks.

[A. G. Maisey]

JustYS, it is as Gustav has said, two twisted bars welded together.

[A. G. Maisey]

HughChen, in your post #17 the pattern in the blade shown was made in the same way that the pattern in my example of the Yantono blade was made, and how the pattern in the blade under discussion was made --- although Gustav disagrees with this.

The difference is in the number of contrasting layers, the blade geometry, the craftsman. In all blade work there can be very many variables, and each variable can affect the finished result, things that have been created in essentially the same way can finish with a totally different appearance.

In most cases the craftsmen who work in the field understand the variables & the results, but in the absence of lengthy specialised training the untrained observer will almost invariably be confused. I guess the same is true in many fields.

In respect of your post #18, do you mean that your friend thought that the Bali blade could have has an inserted edge? I don't believe this blade does have an inserted edge, & I have not yet encountered a Balinese blade that has used this method of construction. The only blades i have found this inserted edge in have been Javanese, mostly from Mataram.

In post #17 you have proposed an impossible method of manufacture, absolutely, totally impossible. The layers in pamor & in damascus are always there, but they vary in number, style, placement, thickness, execution, style, material. Very many variations, & really, I doubt that it is even possible for an untrained person to understand the variations. It is difficult enough for a trained person to understand them sometimes.

[Gustav]

Alan,

with "Gedhegan work" I mean the process for creating Pamor Wusing Wutah Gedhegan.

Sorry, the Pamor on this blade cannot be Wusing Wutah Gedhegan, and one of the indicators are the Pamor lines running diagonally over the central ridge of the blade. The other reason I tried describe in my previous post.

[A. G. Maisey]

Which blade Gustav, the original Bali blade in post #1?

Actually, the meaning that Haryoguritno gives "gedhagen" (not gedheghan", this is a different word, not a variant spelling) is quite different to the meaning given by Basuki Yuwono and by my Solo informant.

Standard Javanese terminology for the Solo reflective pamor is "nginden".

In a Bali wosing wutah gedhegen we are talking about a wos wutah variation that has upright strips , uncontrolled and something like adeg in appearence, but not in construction.

However, if you mean that the pamor in the Bali blade in post #1 cannot have been created from a random pattern pamor with surface manipulation, this assumption is very wrong. The carving of a blade with unevenly distributed layers of pamor will of course create the effect we see in this blade, of a continuation of the same line of pamor across the top of the odo-odo, those layers of pamor run side to side and the layers do not maintain even thickness during forging.

Gustav, it is pretty much as I said to HughChen in my post #24, there are far too many variables to get accurate answers from a finished blade, especially so if we have not had the requisite training in pattern welding. We can guess, but even to guess & with the right training & experience it is not easy in all cases.