Silver Baskethilt Sword for comment

SwordLover79 · 5th February 2024, 04:02 PM

I truly appreciate the insights - what a great forum! Does anybody recognize the crowned star mark on the blade by any change?

10thRoyal · 6th February 2024, 04:22 PM

Jim those are some mighty kind words. And I think you are right on the money that the recessed ricasso points to something more along the lines of a 18th or 17th century rapier/calvary sword/"insert favorite variation of the word here". Something German maybe? As for the marking I haven't turned anything up but maybe someone has one of the more extensive catalogues on hand.

Are there any other potential markings on the ricasso besides the crowned star? Even if they are faint.

Jim McDougall · 6th February 2024, 05:54 PM

This is an INCREDIBLE sword!!!
I have been watching the series "Outlander" on Netflix, which though a 'romance' oriented story, it portrays the Scottish Highlands in the 18th century prior to, during and after Culloden.

Obviously my family heritage (McDougall et al) is from there (we had men at Culloden, but other clan names). The Jacobites had ties to Italy of course, and Prince Charles Stuart himself was born and raised there. While France was of course the key staging area for the 1745 Rebellion, the Catholic Faith, with the Vatican was naturally the revered center religiously for the Stuarts.

Here the blade form is clearly an early blade with phrases in Latin.
I found the marking in "Small Arms Makers", Robert Gardner, 1963, p.360;

It is to an unidentified armorer in Venice, from one found on a 'salade' helmet c. 1465(pictured). It is important to remember that armorers attended to overall outfitting with armor as well as weapons.

The attached image of the mark cites as a source 'Keasby' which is unknown to me (not in bibliography).
The recessed ricasso does seem unusual on this blade, which may be of course an Italian arming sword, but perhaps with a developed guard system of this period.

This may be a heirloom blade acquired by a Scot in the service of the Stuarts in Italy, and held by an ancestor in distinguished lineage, who likely had the sword itself (or perhaps just the blade?). Perhaps he was serving in India and had the blade mounted in this traditional basket hilt in silver.

Another possibility would be that the sword blade was already in India, as European trade was prevalent of course, and Italian swords, blades etc. (typically Venetian, key in Italian trade) were often notably acquired.

With the inscribed phrases, the primary of course PRO CHRISTO ET PATRIA (for Christ and country);
but FIDE SED CUI VID (loosely, 'have confidence but be careful in whom you trust' ) was a favored phrase notably on the armorial bearings of the NICOLL family).
The NEC TEMERE NE TIMIDE (= neither rashly nor timidly)

Clearly a blade which would have been treasured by a Jacobite owner, as well as by his descendant.

An amazing sword with profound historical potential!

SwordLover79 · 7th February 2024, 12:23 AM

Amazing insights as usual - Thanks Jim!!

NeilUK · 7th February 2024, 11:40 AM

I don't know if it will help but The American Arts Association held an auction in 1924 in which the collection of arms and armour of Henry Griffith Keasbey was sold. Apparently a mere $240 will get you a copy of the catalogue!
Neil

Jim McDougall · 7th February 2024, 03:05 PM

Brilliant Neil!!!! Thats some super sluething, thank you.

It is so intriguing to look into the 'golden age' of arms collecting, when valuable arms and armor were considered art and became part of amazing collections whose documentation formed the corpus of material for their study.

As you note, these early catalogs and references are exceedingly rare as they typically had short runs in publishing, so understandably are expensive in the rare cases they are offered.

While most of the material has been placed in subsequent works on the various types of items in accord with the topic, it is amazing to actually hold and peruse these old references, sort of a visit into time with the old sages of arms

There is NOTHING like the scent of old books!

NeilUK · 9th February 2024, 05:37 PM

Please forgive this slight detour into old A&A catalogues. I would hope that the Keasbey cat. might explain the mark. Unfortunately I do not possess a copy of the said cat. (wish I did as there were some choice weapons in the collection, apparently). i do have a few old cats, earliest 1927, and more modern ones - they tend to be cheaper than the actual arms and armour!
Neil

6th February 2024, 05:54 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,193	This is an INCREDIBLE sword!!! I have been watching the series "Outlander" on Netflix, which though a 'romance' oriented story, it portrays the Scottish Highlands in the 18th century prior to, during and after Culloden. Obviously my family heritage (McDougall et al) is from there (we had men at Culloden, but other clan names). The Jacobites had ties to Italy of course, and Prince Charles Stuart himself was born and raised there. While France was of course the key staging area for the 1745 Rebellion, the Catholic Faith, with the Vatican was naturally the revered center religiously for the Stuarts. Here the blade form is clearly an early blade with phrases in Latin. I found the marking in "Small Arms Makers", Robert Gardner, 1963, p.360; It is to an unidentified armorer in Venice, from one found on a 'salade' helmet c. 1465(pictured). It is important to remember that armorers attended to overall outfitting with armor as well as weapons. The attached image of the mark cites as a source 'Keasby' which is unknown to me (not in bibliography). The recessed ricasso does seem unusual on this blade, which may be of course an Italian arming sword, but perhaps with a developed guard system of this period. This may be a heirloom blade acquired by a Scot in the service of the Stuarts in Italy, and held by an ancestor in distinguished lineage, who likely had the sword itself (or perhaps just the blade?). Perhaps he was serving in India and had the blade mounted in this traditional basket hilt in silver. Another possibility would be that the sword blade was already in India, as European trade was prevalent of course, and Italian swords, blades etc. (typically Venetian, key in Italian trade) were often notably acquired. With the inscribed phrases, the primary of course PRO CHRISTO ET PATRIA (for Christ and country); but FIDE SED CUI VID (loosely, 'have confidence but be careful in whom you trust' ) was a favored phrase notably on the armorial bearings of the NICOLL family). The NEC TEMERE NE TIMIDE (= neither rashly nor timidly) Clearly a blade which would have been treasured by a Jacobite owner, as well as by his descendant. An amazing sword with profound historical potential! Attached Images Last edited by Jim McDougall; 6th February 2024 at 06:14 PM.

7th February 2024, 03:05 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,193	Keasbey Catalogue Brilliant Neil!!!! Thats some super sluething, thank you. It is so intriguing to look into the 'golden age' of arms collecting, when valuable arms and armor were considered art and became part of amazing collections whose documentation formed the corpus of material for their study. As you note, these early catalogs and references are exceedingly rare as they typically had short runs in publishing, so understandably are expensive in the rare cases they are offered. While most of the material has been placed in subsequent works on the various types of items in accord with the topic, it is amazing to actually hold and peruse these old references, sort of a visit into time with the old sages of arms There is NOTHING like the scent of old books!

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5th February 2024, 04:02 PM	#1
SwordLover79 Member Join Date: Jun 2022 Location: San Diego Posts: 56	I truly appreciate the insights - what a great forum! Does anybody recognize the crowned star mark on the blade by any change?

6th February 2024, 04:22 PM	#2
10thRoyal Member Join Date: Apr 2021 Posts: 79	Jim those are some mighty kind words. And I think you are right on the money that the recessed ricasso points to something more along the lines of a 18th or 17th century rapier/calvary sword/"insert favorite variation of the word here". Something German maybe? As for the marking I haven't turned anything up but maybe someone has one of the more extensive catalogues on hand. Are there any other potential markings on the ricasso besides the crowned star? Even if they are faint.

7th February 2024, 12:23 AM	#4
SwordLover79 Member Join Date: Jun 2022 Location: San Diego Posts: 56	Amazing insights as usual - Thanks Jim!!

7th February 2024, 11:40 AM	#5
NeilUK Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Scotland Posts: 126	I don't know if it will help but The American Arts Association held an auction in 1924 in which the collection of arms and armour of Henry Griffith Keasbey was sold. Apparently a mere $240 will get you a copy of the catalogue! Neil

9th February 2024, 05:37 PM	#7
NeilUK Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Scotland Posts: 126	Please forgive this slight detour into old A&A catalogues. I would hope that the Keasbey cat. might explain the mark. Unfortunately I do not possess a copy of the said cat. (wish I did as there were some choice weapons in the collection, apparently). i do have a few old cats, earliest 1927, and more modern ones - they tend to be cheaper than the actual arms and armour! Neil