Another Surakarta Keris

kai · 8th January 2024, 05:08 AM

Thanks for all your responses!

Apologies, YS, for my terse comment (I was trying to refer to later kamardikan, probably around turn of the century?) and for sidetracking things with my more general question.

Yes, the fittings are crafted in very fine quality. I suppose the pendok got crafted by pak Dayadi. Congrats, YS!

While pamor wengkon may look simple, I realise that is extremely tough to get perfect. Thus, I was trying to obtain clarification on the goal any high-level smith would be expected to strive for. Thanks, Alan, for answering my question and adding details on bladesmithing methods!

Regards,
Kai

JustYS · 9th January 2024, 12:10 AM

Thank you Gavin.

Thank you Alan for your explanations.

No worries Kai. I dont know who crafted the pendok, but I dont think it was crafted by Pak Dayadi. It was crafted very recently.

Another question regarding dhapur of this Keris (similar to Condhong Campur but missing one lambe Gajah). From the copy Dhapur 1920 book that I have, it exists dhapur Condhong Campur (A), but I could not find Condhong Campur (B). Anybody knows if it exists another variant of Condhong Campur or the (A) in my copy was a typo error?

jagabuwana · 9th January 2024, 05:59 AM

Happy new year JustYS and all reading.

A very nice keris indeed. Thank you for sharing.

A. G. Maisey · 9th January 2024, 07:26 AM

YS, I have the same publication, on P.24 we have the straight version of Condong Campur (A), underneath that text in faint almost invisible print we have: (B)= keluk 7, hal. 54.

So we have a look at page 54, and hey presto --- a 7 luk version.

If we look at EK, the characteristics of Condong Campur vary a bit, and the 7 luk version is not mentioned.

If we look at KJ (ie, HH) we find that HH lists a CC lurus & a CC luk 7.

The simple fact of the matter is that all this stuff about what is and what is not correct terminology is only good if we quote the source that we have drawn upon. As with many things in Jawa, & I guess Indonesia in general, things are not graven in stone.

David · 9th January 2024, 04:42 PM

This is, of course, a completely different dhapur, but i am adding it here for another example of a modern era keris with pamor wengkon. If i am not mistaken i believe this would qualify as wengkon isen as it is wengkon with another pamor contained within its border. I believe this has a fairly well controlled wengkon.

A. G. Maisey · 9th January 2024, 07:27 PM

I have not heard of pamor wengkon isen.

It does not appear in EK, nor in KJ. In fact in KJ, HH calls pamor wengkon "pamor tepen", another term I have not heard used in Solo.

The word "isen" comes from "isi" = "contents", "isen" is normally used as "isen-isen", again meaning "contents", so "wengkon isen" is actually a description, not a name.

HH's name for pamor wengkon, ie, "pamor tepen", I find to be very peculiar, because "tepen" means "a decorative border".

In Solo, I have only ever heard pamor wengkon referred to as "pamor wengkon", and when another pamor is found within the border of the wengkon it would be referred to by its name, in the case of David's fine example, this would be "pamor wengkon and kuta mesir", again, a description, not a name, but a description that names the two component pamor motifs.

Keris terminology varies all over the place, broadly, it is not fixed, and I personally believe a lot of keris terminology these days has been made up to cover lack of knowledge or to satisfy the needs of a person or group.

David · 9th January 2024, 10:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Keris terminology varies all over the place, broadly, it is not fixed, and I personally believe a lot of keris terminology these days has been made up to cover lack of knowledge or to satisfy the needs of a person or group.

Thanks Alan, i am sure quite a lot of names have been made up in the keris world just in the past few years. I had heard the term "wengkon isen" elsewhere before this thread and it does seem to be a fair descriptor for a pamor held within a wengkon pamor. But i am just as pleased to refer to my keris as "wengkon kuta mesir" as well, which would be more specific. I used the term here mostly because JustYS had asked about above.

Gavin Nugent · 9th January 2024, 11:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

This is, of course, a completely different dhapur, .

.
Personally I'm not a fan of the overall profiles at the base and gonjo, I do really like the contrast and pamor within this blade though, very smart looking.
Appreciation for what the artist has done with the metals and finish is deserved.

It looks somewhat like a long flowing Wayang profile seen within the top layers of spiral turns in that central block. Something one may consider auspicious.

JustYS · 10th January 2024, 09:34 AM

Thank you Jagabuwana.

Thank you for your answer Alan, it seems that my Dhapur copy is incomplete.

In Luk 7 section I only have: Sempana Panjul, Carubuk, Sempana Bungkem, Sepokal (A), Murda Malela, Kidang Soka, Jaran Guyang, Panji Semedi and Naga Keras.

What a gorgeous Keris David.

9th January 2024, 04:42 PM	#5
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,218	This is, of course, a completely different dhapur, but i am adding it here for another example of a modern era keris with pamor wengkon. If i am not mistaken i believe this would qualify as wengkon isen as it is wengkon with another pamor contained within its border. I believe this has a fairly well controlled wengkon. Attached Images

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8th January 2024, 05:08 AM	#1
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,255	Thanks for all your responses! Apologies, YS, for my terse comment (I was trying to refer to later kamardikan, probably around turn of the century?) and for sidetracking things with my more general question. Yes, the fittings are crafted in very fine quality. I suppose the pendok got crafted by pak Dayadi. Congrats, YS! While pamor wengkon may look simple, I realise that is extremely tough to get perfect. Thus, I was trying to obtain clarification on the goal any high-level smith would be expected to strive for. Thanks, Alan, for answering my question and adding details on bladesmithing methods! Regards, Kai

9th January 2024, 12:10 AM	#2
JustYS Member Join Date: Apr 2019 Posts: 145	Thank you Gavin. Thank you Alan for your explanations. No worries Kai. I dont know who crafted the pendok, but I dont think it was crafted by Pak Dayadi. It was crafted very recently. Another question regarding dhapur of this Keris (similar to Condhong Campur but missing one lambe Gajah). From the copy Dhapur 1920 book that I have, it exists dhapur Condhong Campur (A), but I could not find Condhong Campur (B). Anybody knows if it exists another variant of Condhong Campur or the (A) in my copy was a typo error?

9th January 2024, 05:59 AM	#3
jagabuwana Member Join Date: Jan 2018 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 290	Happy new year JustYS and all reading. A very nice keris indeed. Thank you for sharing.

9th January 2024, 07:26 AM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	YS, I have the same publication, on P.24 we have the straight version of Condong Campur (A), underneath that text in faint almost invisible print we have: (B)= keluk 7, hal. 54. So we have a look at page 54, and hey presto --- a 7 luk version. If we look at EK, the characteristics of Condong Campur vary a bit, and the 7 luk version is not mentioned. If we look at KJ (ie, HH) we find that HH lists a CC lurus & a CC luk 7. The simple fact of the matter is that all this stuff about what is and what is not correct terminology is only good if we quote the source that we have drawn upon. As with many things in Jawa, & I guess Indonesia in general, things are not graven in stone.

9th January 2024, 07:27 PM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	I have not heard of pamor wengkon isen. It does not appear in EK, nor in KJ. In fact in KJ, HH calls pamor wengkon "pamor tepen", another term I have not heard used in Solo. The word "isen" comes from "isi" = "contents", "isen" is normally used as "isen-isen", again meaning "contents", so "wengkon isen" is actually a description, not a name. HH's name for pamor wengkon, ie, "pamor tepen", I find to be very peculiar, because "tepen" means "a decorative border". In Solo, I have only ever heard pamor wengkon referred to as "pamor wengkon", and when another pamor is found within the border of the wengkon it would be referred to by its name, in the case of David's fine example, this would be "pamor wengkon and kuta mesir", again, a description, not a name, but a description that names the two component pamor motifs. Keris terminology varies all over the place, broadly, it is not fixed, and I personally believe a lot of keris terminology these days has been made up to cover lack of knowledge or to satisfy the needs of a person or group.

10th January 2024, 09:34 AM	#9
JustYS Member Join Date: Apr 2019 Posts: 145	Thank you Jagabuwana. Thank you for your answer Alan, it seems that my Dhapur copy is incomplete. In Luk 7 section I only have: Sempana Panjul, Carubuk, Sempana Bungkem, Sepokal (A), Murda Malela, Kidang Soka, Jaran Guyang, Panji Semedi and Naga Keras. What a gorgeous Keris David.