Identification of an indonesian dagger

Rick · 3rd July 2006, 07:58 PM

I must ask ; why would the English wish to use crucible steel in a bayonet of all things when they had fine non crucible steel that was most likely easier to work , cheaper and tougher ?

I have in my hands right now a late 17th/early 18th century backsword blade English which is not crucible steel . If you melt an ingot of crucible steel for casting will it still retain any pattern or will it become homogenus ?

Tim Simmons · 3rd July 2006, 08:10 PM

I do not think this has anything to do with European/British steel or bayonet and blade forms. I think it has its origins in the spears from Indo/Persia and other Asian influences on Indonesia.

nechesh · 3rd July 2006, 09:24 PM

Hey Henk, is the hilt easily removable like on a keris. It might be educational to have a look at the tang.

Battara · 4th July 2006, 01:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

I do not think this has anything to do with European/British steel or bayonet and blade forms. I think it has its origins in the spears from Indo/Persia and other Asian influences on Indonesia.

I'm inclined to agree with you Tim. Many India spearheads are like this. Trade perhaps? Not unheard of in this region.

Henk · 4th July 2006, 07:09 PM

Gentlemen, I'm very happy with your input.

Nechesh, I could remove the hilt and made some pictures of the tang. During taking the pictures I noticed a very small stamp on the blade, hardly visible, but the pictures don't lie. It is very hard to see what the mark is even under a magnifying glass. I asked my daughter to look for me and she saw something like a N and a 4 or a triangle. On the picture I have a better image and I see something as PM or PN but it is very small and hardly to see with naked eyes.
Ki Jayamalelo showed a link of bayonets with a triangular one. If you look at such a bayonet it is attached with a round elbowformed tube to the socket.
The tang of my blade is square and doesn't show signs of reattachement to the blade.

As far as I know those reattachements or welding spurs are easily to discover. I've seen often reattached peksi's to keris. The place were the peksi is reattached is always thicker and visible.

I would like to hear your comments on these facts.
Alan, I hope you will react as well.

Tim Simmons · 4th July 2006, 07:19 PM

Which way up is the mark read????

Rick · 4th July 2006, 07:29 PM

Well , I'm willing to eat my words .

But what ?
Plug bayonet ?

Henk · 4th July 2006, 07:37 PM

Tim,

Now that I'm looking a bit better to the pictures you can read the mark with the point towards you as PM and with the angle towards you as NJ or something. I really cann't make anyting of it and better pictures than these are not possible.

Tim Simmons · 4th July 2006, 07:45 PM

I still do not see a European bayonet. The mark, what we can see is not recognisably European. The brown bess type bayonets have thinner cutting edges.? They are not made of this type of steel. There seems to be no grinding on the blade? I suppose there is a wild chance that it could be some really early rich persons bayonet. Did rich people stand in line with bayonets?

Henk · 5th July 2006, 06:31 PM

Not that I know, Tim. As far as I know farmers did join the battles of their lords in the middle ages. But their weapons where more their tools they used to work with on the fields. In the ages after the middle ages the battles where fought by armies with trained soldiers. But i don't know enough about this subject to give a good answer on that.

3rd July 2006, 07:58 PM	#1
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,336	All Well and Fine ... But I must ask ; why would the English wish to use crucible steel in a bayonet of all things when they had fine non crucible steel that was most likely easier to work , cheaper and tougher ? I have in my hands right now a late 17th/early 18th century backsword blade English which is not crucible steel . If you melt an ingot of crucible steel for casting will it still retain any pattern or will it become homogenus ? Last edited by Rick; 3rd July 2006 at 08:13 PM.

4th July 2006, 07:09 PM	#5
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	Gentlemen, I'm very happy with your input. Nechesh, I could remove the hilt and made some pictures of the tang. During taking the pictures I noticed a very small stamp on the blade, hardly visible, but the pictures don't lie. It is very hard to see what the mark is even under a magnifying glass. I asked my daughter to look for me and she saw something like a N and a 4 or a triangle. On the picture I have a better image and I see something as PM or PN but it is very small and hardly to see with naked eyes. Ki Jayamalelo showed a link of bayonets with a triangular one. If you look at such a bayonet it is attached with a round elbowformed tube to the socket. The tang of my blade is square and doesn't show signs of reattachement to the blade. As far as I know those reattachements or welding spurs are easily to discover. I've seen often reattached peksi's to keris. The place were the peksi is reattached is always thicker and visible. I would like to hear your comments on these facts. Alan, I hope you will react as well. Attached Images

4th July 2006, 07:29 PM	#7
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,336	European Well , I'm willing to eat my words . But what ? Plug bayonet ?

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3rd July 2006, 08:10 PM	#2
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,843	I do not think this has anything to do with European/British steel or bayonet and blade forms. I think it has its origins in the spears from Indo/Persia and other Asian influences on Indonesia.

3rd July 2006, 09:24 PM	#3
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Hey Henk, is the hilt easily removable like on a keris. It might be educational to have a look at the tang.

4th July 2006, 07:19 PM	#6
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,843	Which way up is the mark read????

4th July 2006, 07:37 PM	#8
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	Tim, Now that I'm looking a bit better to the pictures you can read the mark with the point towards you as PM and with the angle towards you as NJ or something. I really cann't make anyting of it and better pictures than these are not possible.

4th July 2006, 07:45 PM	#9
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,843	I still do not see a European bayonet. The mark, what we can see is not recognisably European. The brown bess type bayonets have thinner cutting edges.? They are not made of this type of steel. There seems to be no grinding on the blade? I suppose there is a wild chance that it could be some really early rich persons bayonet. Did rich people stand in line with bayonets?

5th July 2006, 06:31 PM	#10
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	Not that I know, Tim. As far as I know farmers did join the battles of their lords in the middle ages. But their weapons where more their tools they used to work with on the fields. In the ages after the middle ages the battles where fought by armies with trained soldiers. But i don't know enough about this subject to give a good answer on that.