Opinions on "Kurdish-Armenian" Yatagans?

AvtoGaz · 29th October 2023, 10:50 PM

Thank you Jim for your invaluable insights. If these weapons were indeed being collected in Erzurum, then their presence in the Transcaucasus and Tbilisi would make a lot of sense. As we know, a lot of the most famous ethnic Armenian masters of Caucasian Arms (example: Purunsuzov) originally hailed from Erzurum. There was a large migration of ethnic Armenians from Ezurum to the Russian empire (Most notably to Southern Georgia and the north Armenian region of Shirak) after the Russo-Turkish wars. I take it that perhaps they also brought this weapon with them, and some of the craftsmen that moved also applied their decorative style to Caucasian kindjals? Kindjals including the one I posted at the top of my post. Both the Yatagan and Kindjal at the top share their style of blade decoration and more importantly, style of inscription (which I, as a native Armenian speaker, can only describe as letter imitation. Some of the letters are real letters of the Armenian alphabet, others are not or were somehow misspelled. Not one inscription on either of them forms a coherent word. I take it either these were being produced by illiterate masters putting inscriptions on for simple decoration, or its some form of stylization that abbreviates words by omitting letters.) Given these similarities, I think these kindjals and the Kurdish-Armenian yatagans are invariably linked.

My 2 cents.

Jim McDougall · 30th October 2023, 10:39 PM

Thank you as well, and again, I appreciate your explaining your position based on the inscribed decorative motif on these. I agree with what you suggest on them based on the fact that the letters do not form coherent words. As you note, there is the thought of non speakers of Armenian trying to imitate the language 'artistically' or less convincing, illiterate workers.

I think the notion of stylized lettering and placement of letters with omissions may be a plausible explanation, much as the use of acrostic letters found on many Italian blades, sometimes copied in that manner elsewhere. In times and regions where conflicts, strife and intrigues were at hand with ethnic, religious, political issues were constantly present, such methods seemed viable.

There are examples of such 'coded' acrostic 'messages' found on medieval swords that many have seen as 'jibberish' as no intelligible words are there.
In some cases, the use of numbers in the same manner form acrostics or acronyms using the alphabetical equivalent of the numbers.

It seems I have seen many examples of weapons with similar use of decoration, deeply punched markings on swords such as qama, which share similarities to kindjhals which are claimed to be from Azerbijian, many not what I would deem of 'quality'.

There certainly a lot of possibilities here, given the complex dynamics of these regions and the peoples involved, but the history here is fascinating.

29th October 2023, 10:50 PM	#1
AvtoGaz Member Join Date: Dec 2022 Posts: 36	Thank you Jim for your invaluable insights. If these weapons were indeed being collected in Erzurum, then their presence in the Transcaucasus and Tbilisi would make a lot of sense. As we know, a lot of the most famous ethnic Armenian masters of Caucasian Arms (example: Purunsuzov) originally hailed from Erzurum. There was a large migration of ethnic Armenians from Ezurum to the Russian empire (Most notably to Southern Georgia and the north Armenian region of Shirak) after the Russo-Turkish wars. I take it that perhaps they also brought this weapon with them, and some of the craftsmen that moved also applied their decorative style to Caucasian kindjals? Kindjals including the one I posted at the top of my post. Both the Yatagan and Kindjal at the top share their style of blade decoration and more importantly, style of inscription (which I, as a native Armenian speaker, can only describe as letter imitation. Some of the letters are real letters of the Armenian alphabet, others are not or were somehow misspelled. Not one inscription on either of them forms a coherent word. I take it either these were being produced by illiterate masters putting inscriptions on for simple decoration, or its some form of stylization that abbreviates words by omitting letters.) Given these similarities, I think these kindjals and the Kurdish-Armenian yatagans are invariably linked. My 2 cents. Last edited by Lee; 30th October 2023 at 12:53 AM. Reason: Please do not quote entire previous posts, just relevant small sections when necessary.

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30th October 2023, 10:39 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Thank you as well, and again, I appreciate your explaining your position based on the inscribed decorative motif on these. I agree with what you suggest on them based on the fact that the letters do not form coherent words. As you note, there is the thought of non speakers of Armenian trying to imitate the language 'artistically' or less convincing, illiterate workers. I think the notion of stylized lettering and placement of letters with omissions may be a plausible explanation, much as the use of acrostic letters found on many Italian blades, sometimes copied in that manner elsewhere. In times and regions where conflicts, strife and intrigues were at hand with ethnic, religious, political issues were constantly present, such methods seemed viable. There are examples of such 'coded' acrostic 'messages' found on medieval swords that many have seen as 'jibberish' as no intelligible words are there. In some cases, the use of numbers in the same manner form acrostics or acronyms using the alphabetical equivalent of the numbers. It seems I have seen many examples of weapons with similar use of decoration, deeply punched markings on swords such as qama, which share similarities to kindjhals which are claimed to be from Azerbijian, many not what I would deem of 'quality'. There certainly a lot of possibilities here, given the complex dynamics of these regions and the peoples involved, but the history here is fascinating.