Opinions on "Kurdish-Armenian" Yatagans?

[Jim McDougall]

Well observed Avto Gaz, and well placed as you are clearly well versed in the ethnography and geography of these regions. I very much appreciate your detailed perspective and explanations as I consider my knowledge and understanding of these weapons very much a 'work in progress'. While I have actively studied these for many years, the resources needed are not always easy to find, nor obtained, and what I presented took many years to find.

I would note that in the references I have consulted, which includes correspondence with museums which were cited in Jacobsen & Triikman (1941) indeed confirming the items in their holdings, often noted collection of them in ERZERUM and TREBIZON. Here I would point out that the Kurdish and Armenian peoples have been widely diffused geographically throughout all these regions through diaspora over many years, and cannot be geographically defined, at least specifically.

As I have been told by respected scholars, 'ethnographic weapons have no geographic boundaries', which seems an obvious and well placed axiom.

I would note here that the Armenians are known as profoundly skilled craftsmen, and the producers of remarkable arms in Ottoman contexts, as well as throughout Transcaucasian and Anatolian regions, even into Europe (notably Lvov) and particularly present in Tiflis (Tblisi, Georgia).
I am certain they were active in many arms making centers in addition to these, which come to mind as prevalent.

This is accounts for an undeniable fact in adamant geographic classifications, that ethnic groups are not limited to specific regions, and proper description must go to the most predominant characteristics of the weapons. To class a weapon form as indiginous to a region it should have remarkable preponderance there as well as some chronological development with viable provenance.

I can recall, by analogy, the so called 'Zanzibar' sword (Demmin, 1877; Burton, 1884) which of course had been seen there, however later research revealed these were in fact the 's'boula' form from Moroccan regions which had migrated there through trans Saharan trade networks.
It was claimed these were Abyssinan because of several examples which turned up in some obscure references on Ethiopian weapons in which ge'ez script (Amharic) was present. Simply explained, these arrived there from the Moroccan regions via the same conduit.

By the same token, these Black Sea yataghans have also been mislabeled 'North African' by some writers due to inscriptions on the blades described as 'African' , and the presence of some from North African regions. This I attribute to the Ottoman presence there in the 19th c. and obviously the ethnic groups present in that context, including Armenians et al.
I recall Mr. Seifert himself when I asked about the example he pictured in his book (1962), he told me he had the Kurdish-Armenian classification from his colleague Mr. Jacobsen (1941) and that he was puzzled by the 'strange' inscriptions on the blade. As many years have passed, I can only speculate that these were perhaps Georgian ?as we know some examples of these have displayed. In conversations with a colleague in Tblisi, I was told that these indeed were somewhat known there as we discussed them. Again, the Armenian presence in Tblisi the obvious source.

[AvtoGaz]

Thank you Jim for your invaluable insights. If these weapons were indeed being collected in Erzurum, then their presence in the Transcaucasus and Tbilisi would make a lot of sense. As we know, a lot of the most famous ethnic Armenian masters of Caucasian Arms (example: Purunsuzov) originally hailed from Erzurum. There was a large migration of ethnic Armenians from Ezurum to the Russian empire (Most notably to Southern Georgia and the north Armenian region of Shirak) after the Russo-Turkish wars. I take it that perhaps they also brought this weapon with them, and some of the craftsmen that moved also applied their decorative style to Caucasian kindjals? Kindjals including the one I posted at the top of my post. Both the Yatagan and Kindjal at the top share their style of blade decoration and more importantly, style of inscription (which I, as a native Armenian speaker, can only describe as letter imitation. Some of the letters are real letters of the Armenian alphabet, others are not or were somehow misspelled. Not one inscription on either of them forms a coherent word. I take it either these were being produced by illiterate masters putting inscriptions on for simple decoration, or its some form of stylization that abbreviates words by omitting letters.) Given these similarities, I think these kindjals and the Kurdish-Armenian yatagans are invariably linked.

My 2 cents.

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you as well, and again, I appreciate your explaining your position based on the inscribed decorative motif on these. I agree with what you suggest on them based on the fact that the letters do not form coherent words. As you note, there is the thought of non speakers of Armenian trying to imitate the language 'artistically' or less convincing, illiterate workers.

I think the notion of stylized lettering and placement of letters with omissions may be a plausible explanation, much as the use of acrostic letters found on many Italian blades, sometimes copied in that manner elsewhere. In times and regions where conflicts, strife and intrigues were at hand with ethnic, religious, political issues were constantly present, such methods seemed viable.

There are examples of such 'coded' acrostic 'messages' found on medieval swords that many have seen as 'jibberish' as no intelligible words are there.
In some cases, the use of numbers in the same manner form acrostics or acronyms using the alphabetical equivalent of the numbers.

It seems I have seen many examples of weapons with similar use of decoration, deeply punched markings on swords such as qama, which share similarities to kindjhals which are claimed to be from Azerbijian, many not what I would deem of 'quality'.

There certainly a lot of possibilities here, given the complex dynamics of these regions and the peoples involved, but the history here is fascinating.