Kris hilt material query

SidJ · 18th May 2023, 01:44 PM

Thanks Alan
The scabbard although not original has been with the keris for some time. This is evidenced by the clear difference in blade colour at the point where it protrudes from the scabbard mouth. So I guess we can say the replacement is not recent and perhaps probably done within the culture.

A. G. Maisey · 18th May 2023, 01:47 PM

Very possible Sid.

Sajen · 18th May 2023, 05:13 PM

Hello Sid,

The hilt is in the pangulu style, scabbard looks Bugis but I am a little bit unsure about the blade, could be Bugis also. A proper warangan could give some clues.

Regards,
Detlef

SidJ · 18th May 2023, 11:42 PM

The blade cross section is not hexagonal in profile like typical Bugis blades. Could this be Sumatran,? I do not know if the Hilt could be Sumatran too. Is this what pengulu style refers to?

A. G. Maisey · 19th May 2023, 01:12 AM

Detlef, in Bahasa Indonesia the word "panghulu" (also penghulu, pengulu, pangulu) means a village chief or a leader.

In the Ahmad Ubbe book the word used for "hilt" is "hulu" with "pangulu" in brackets after "hulu"; he gives "kili-kili" as the word for "mendak", also bracketted after "kili-kili".

If we read down through the following description of the hilts, further information is given, including "tipe" (in English:- "type"), for example, "rekko" which appears to be the name Ahmad Ubbe uses for this bent over pistol grip form of hilt.

As I have previously written, I have next to no knowledge in respect of this type of keris, but I do have Ahmad Ubbe's book --- much of which I find a bit confusing.

milandro · 19th May 2023, 12:06 PM

I have a similar but absolutely modern Bugis hilt certainly made of Kerbau as I believe this too is (although mine is certainly black with hints of white-grey) while this appears to be brown . Also I have a couple of similar Bugis warangkas very similar. The blade may or may not be " Bugis" but since the Bugis culture is widespread in many areas could easily be borrowed from a different tradition. It somewhat reminds me of a Palembang blade that I have.

With hindsight, it is possible that it may be rhino.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=6162

One should be really looking at any trace of dotty structure. If it is...this may be bad news since out is not possible to legally trade this item in perpetuity and only a museum may be able to display it

I am curious to whom would be able in any western country of the world to offer rhino hilt?

A. G. Maisey · 19th May 2023, 02:04 PM

As to blade origin, I believe I can see a lot of Jawa in the blade, but the complete keris still qualifies as Bugis style.

David · 19th May 2023, 09:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by milandro

With hindsight, it is possible that it may be rhino.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=6162

One should be really looking at any trace of dotty structure.

I don't see any photo of this hilt in this thread that gives the impression that this hilt is rhino. You are correct that one needs to identify the tubular structure of rhino horn that would terminate at the surface in tiny dots, but no such structure is visible in these images. If Sid can see such structure in his hilt it would probably be visible by looking straight at the "face" of the hilt. Using a strong flashlight can also help as the horn should be somewhat translucent. If Sid can see this structure perhaps he can capture in in photos from a better angle.

Sajen · 19th May 2023, 08:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Detlef, in Bahasa Indonesia the word "panghulu" (also penghulu, pengulu, pangulu) means a village chief or a leader.

In the Ahmad Ubbe book the word used for "hilt" is "hulu" with "pangulu" in brackets after "hulu"; he gives "kili-kili" as the word for "mendak", also bracketted after "kili-kili".

If we read down through the following description of the hilts, further information is given, including "tipe" (in English:- "type"), for example, "rekko" which appears to be the name Ahmad Ubbe uses for this bent over pistol grip form of hilt.

As I have previously written, I have next to no knowledge in respect of this type of keris, but I do have Ahmad Ubbe's book --- much of which I find a bit confusing.

Hello Alan,

Yes, he used the term "pangulu" for hulu, you are correct and specified it furthermore. But it seems that this term gets used by collectors for this typical pistol grip here and elsewhere.
I should have written more clearly and specifically, sorry!

Regards,
Detlef

19th May 2023, 12:06 PM	#6
milandro Member Join Date: Jan 2022 Location: Netherlands Posts: 498	I have a similar but absolutely modern Bugis hilt certainly made of Kerbau as I believe this too is (although mine is certainly black with hints of white-grey) while this appears to be brown . Also I have a couple of similar Bugis warangkas very similar. The blade may or may not be " Bugis" but since the Bugis culture is widespread in many areas could easily be borrowed from a different tradition. It somewhat reminds me of a Palembang blade that I have. With hindsight, it is possible that it may be rhino. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=6162 One should be really looking at any trace of dotty structure. If it is...this may be bad news since out is not possible to legally trade this item in perpetuity and only a museum may be able to display it I am curious to whom would be able in any western country of the world to offer rhino hilt? Last edited by milandro; 19th May 2023 at 01:38 PM.

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18th May 2023, 01:44 PM	#1
SidJ Member Join Date: Apr 2020 Posts: 244	Thanks Alan The scabbard although not original has been with the keris for some time. This is evidenced by the clear difference in blade colour at the point where it protrudes from the scabbard mouth. So I guess we can say the replacement is not recent and perhaps probably done within the culture.

18th May 2023, 01:47 PM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,165	Very possible Sid.

18th May 2023, 05:13 PM	#3
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 9,564	Hello Sid, The hilt is in the pangulu style, scabbard looks Bugis but I am a little bit unsure about the blade, could be Bugis also. A proper warangan could give some clues. Regards, Detlef

18th May 2023, 11:42 PM	#4
SidJ Member Join Date: Apr 2020 Posts: 244	The blade cross section is not hexagonal in profile like typical Bugis blades. Could this be Sumatran,? I do not know if the Hilt could be Sumatran too. Is this what pengulu style refers to?

19th May 2023, 01:12 AM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,165	Detlef, in Bahasa Indonesia the word "panghulu" (also penghulu, pengulu, pangulu) means a village chief or a leader. In the Ahmad Ubbe book the word used for "hilt" is "hulu" with "pangulu" in brackets after "hulu"; he gives "kili-kili" as the word for "mendak", also bracketted after "kili-kili". If we read down through the following description of the hilts, further information is given, including "tipe" (in English:- "type"), for example, "rekko" which appears to be the name Ahmad Ubbe uses for this bent over pistol grip form of hilt. As I have previously written, I have next to no knowledge in respect of this type of keris, but I do have Ahmad Ubbe's book --- much of which I find a bit confusing.

19th May 2023, 02:04 PM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,165	As to blade origin, I believe I can see a lot of Jawa in the blade, but the complete keris still qualifies as Bugis style.