Please help me identify the age and markings on this Rapier.

Interested Party · 7th September 2022, 01:39 AM

Jim, is that an ivory handle? Thanks for showing a different type of rim to the cup. This helps clarify post #17.

I would love to add a colonial arming sword to my collection some day.

ASPaulding · 7th September 2022, 02:16 AM

Thank you for sharing. That is one beautiful sword. One day I hope to have a nice collection of diffrent arms around 18th century or older. To me that was the time swords and daggers alike really mattered. It just wasn't for show or for the very last resort. They were meant to be a piece of art as well as a key part to survival.

Jim McDougall · 7th September 2022, 02:44 AM

Thank you so much guys!
I believe this is indeed ivory, and clearly has been on this for a very long time. This is of course atypical for hilts on these kinds of swords, but in colonial situations there were were few limitations to the personalizing of a weapon. Actually, the use of ivory and the remnants of black japanning strongly suggests possible maritime provenance on a vessel in the Spanish Main, an intriguing thought!

Swords were indeed a key weapon and despite the advent of firearms, these quickly became primary arms with issues with misfires, lack of ammunition, inability to reload in heat of battle and in melee etc.
The fact that there is a subtle kind of art that resides in often the simplest of edged weapon in the design and character of many of the elements is something not often seen by most people.
Not the fancy ceremonial weapons often in high end catalogs, but the 'real deal' that were often 'there' in historic moments often portrayed in famed art work.

fernando · 7th September 2022, 10:11 AM

I am still intrigued (above all) by those series of digits (inventory, serial, code numbers ?) and now with that 'mark' in both blade faces. Hardly maker's marks, as those usually (always) punch them in one of the sides.

.

Jim McDougall · 7th September 2022, 05:06 PM

It truly is a puzzle, and the only comparison I can think of is with some blades that were found on South American swords using 'blanks' from Solingen that had numeric sequences on the blade, at the forte in this manner. These were however with three numbers if I recall, but there were two swords with the same type blade and same number. This led me to believe these were either a contract lot or blade type (?) used administratively by the producer of the blades, and these seem to have been 19th c. but hard to say period.
I wish I could find the examples, I'll keep looking.

Whatever the case, Solingen was of course primary provider for blades and swords through 19th century into South American regions, where Portuguese colonial occupation had prevailed, thus many of these swords likely remained as well.

M ELEY · 8th September 2022, 05:49 AM

Very awesome sword! Glad you removed the rust, ASPaulding. I would also think a good possibility of being 'colonial/provincial', but await further comments. Jim, that ivory-gripped colonial cuphilt of yours is amazing! I know we've all seen mine, but this thread gives me an excuse to post my Caribbean example again!

Jim McDougall · 8th September 2022, 06:37 PM

Thank you Capn! Im glad you added this fantastic example of yours, which really carries out the spectrum of character in these colonial type examples. What I really like on yours is the cross hatched ebony grip.

7th September 2022, 10:11 AM	#4
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	I am still intrigued (above all) by those series of digits (inventory, serial, code numbers ?) and now with that 'mark' in both blade faces. Hardly maker's marks, as those usually (always) punch them in one of the sides. . Attached Images

8th September 2022, 05:49 AM	#6
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,146	Very awesome sword! Glad you removed the rust, ASPaulding. I would also think a good possibility of being 'colonial/provincial', but await further comments. Jim, that ivory-gripped colonial cuphilt of yours is amazing! I know we've all seen mine, but this thread gives me an excuse to post my Caribbean example again! Attached Images

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7th September 2022, 01:39 AM	#1
Interested Party Member Join Date: Dec 2019 Location: Eastern Sierra Posts: 496	Jim, is that an ivory handle? Thanks for showing a different type of rim to the cup. This helps clarify post #17. I would love to add a colonial arming sword to my collection some day.

7th September 2022, 02:16 AM	#2
ASPaulding Member Join Date: Sep 2021 Posts: 84	Thank you for sharing. That is one beautiful sword. One day I hope to have a nice collection of diffrent arms around 18th century or older. To me that was the time swords and daggers alike really mattered. It just wasn't for show or for the very last resort. They were meant to be a piece of art as well as a key part to survival.

7th September 2022, 02:44 AM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,200	Thank you so much guys! I believe this is indeed ivory, and clearly has been on this for a very long time. This is of course atypical for hilts on these kinds of swords, but in colonial situations there were were few limitations to the personalizing of a weapon. Actually, the use of ivory and the remnants of black japanning strongly suggests possible maritime provenance on a vessel in the Spanish Main, an intriguing thought! Swords were indeed a key weapon and despite the advent of firearms, these quickly became primary arms with issues with misfires, lack of ammunition, inability to reload in heat of battle and in melee etc. The fact that there is a subtle kind of art that resides in often the simplest of edged weapon in the design and character of many of the elements is something not often seen by most people. Not the fancy ceremonial weapons often in high end catalogs, but the 'real deal' that were often 'there' in historic moments often portrayed in famed art work.

7th September 2022, 05:06 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,200	It truly is a puzzle, and the only comparison I can think of is with some blades that were found on South American swords using 'blanks' from Solingen that had numeric sequences on the blade, at the forte in this manner. These were however with three numbers if I recall, but there were two swords with the same type blade and same number. This led me to believe these were either a contract lot or blade type (?) used administratively by the producer of the blades, and these seem to have been 19th c. but hard to say period. I wish I could find the examples, I'll keep looking. Whatever the case, Solingen was of course primary provider for blades and swords through 19th century into South American regions, where Portuguese colonial occupation had prevailed, thus many of these swords likely remained as well.

8th September 2022, 06:37 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,200	Thank you Capn! Im glad you added this fantastic example of yours, which really carries out the spectrum of character in these colonial type examples. What I really like on yours is the cross hatched ebony grip.