Knife for I.D. Chinese? Tibetan? Bhutanese?

[Norman McCormick]

Hi Ausjulius,
Some more photos. The edge is sharp with the ‘ricasso’ on one side possibly due to sharpening that one side more than the other. There is a drain hole on the bottom of the scabbard and signs of copper brazing on the hilt and scabbard. I would appreciate your further ideas on age and origin. Thanks again.
My Regards,
Norman.

P.S. If you need more photos please don’t hesitate to ask.

[Norman McCormick]

Hi Ausjulius,
More photos. The blade appears to have had many sharpenings.
My Regards,
Norman.

[Tim Simmons]

Excellent, there we are, learning something new.

[Norman McCormick]

Thanks Tim. One more photo.

[Jim McDougall]

While this topic is open here, I thought I would take the opportunity to ask about am item I have had for some time, and with limited resources and knowledge on these weapons this seemed a good time.

I had thought it perhaps a short sword which seems I recall termed 'dossum' in Tibetan, but that research was from many years ago.
Can you guys offer some insight?

[JBG163]

Hi Jim, this is a bhutanese Patag, hilt is characteristic as much as the three parts scabbard

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by JBG163

Hi Jim, this is a bhutanese Patag, hilt is characteristic as much as the three parts scabbard

Thank you so much JBG!!!

[ausjulius]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

While this topic is open here, I thought I would take the opportunity to ask about am item I have had for some time, and with limited resources and knowledge on these weapons this seemed a good time.

I had thought it perhaps a short sword which seems I recall termed 'dossum' in Tibetan, but that research was from many years ago.
Can you guys offer some insight?

hi jim, its a "patag" from bhutan. probably ealry 20th century.

[ausjulius]

Originally Posted by Norman McCormick

Hi Ausjulius,
Some more photos. The edge is sharp with the ‘ricasso’ on one side possibly due to sharpening that one side more than the other. There is a drain hole on the bottom of the scabbard and signs of copper brazing on the hilt and scabbard. I would appreciate your further ideas on age and origin. Thanks again.
My Regards,
Norman.

P.S. If you need more photos please don’t hesitate to ask.

hi thanks yes 19th or 20th century.
with iron fittings like that id say age is older pre chinese invasion most likely. so prior to the 1950s.
after that time you see more and more white metal or bass or copper combined with steel on the knives from this area - (northern amdo) fittings and almost no simple carved steel fittings. infact id say it is without a doubt prior to the second world war and could be prior to that.. these areas are just so isloated.

i cant say the region for sure but id say its north east amdo or northern central amdo, amdo is as large as the u-tsang part of tibet.
knives like this were carried for self defence. different ethnic groups of tibetian peoples carry them differently too. some hand them some put them in their belts almost horizontally. ect. you can see images of the 20th century in some areas where every peroson is carrying a large knife or short sword on their waist so there is a great variaiton in quality.. the more ornate can be of silver gold and folded steel blades, some have lizard, toad or fish skin.

[Norman McCormick]

Originally Posted by ausjulius

hi thanks yes 19th or 20th century.
with iron fittings like that id say age is older pre chinese invasion most likely. so prior to the 1950s.
after that time you see more and more white metal or bass or copper combined with steel on the knives from this area - (northern amdo) fittings and almost no simple carved steel fittings. infact id say it is without a doubt prior to the second world war and could be prior to that.. these areas are just so isloated.

i cant say the region for sure but id say its north east amdo or northern central amdo, amdo is as large as the u-tsang part of tibet.
knives like this were carried for self defence. different ethnic groups of tibetian peoples carry them differently too. some hand them some put them in their belts almost horizontally. ect. you can see images of the 20th century in some areas where every peroson is carrying a large knife or short sword on their waist so there is a great variaiton in quality.. the more ornate can be of silver gold and folded steel blades, some have lizard, toad or fish skin.

Hi Ausjulius,
Many thanks for the additional information.
My Regards,
Norman.

[Jim McDougall]

I wanted to add that thanks to the information on my entry to this thread, with the info from JBG and Ausjulius noting my example as being a palag from Bhutan. With this I was able to find a bit more noting there were certain peculiarities in these, it seems mostly from the metallurgy of the blades and the makers (11 types named for these makers). While these were worn by priests it seems that examples used in war had a 'cross' (what form not specified) placed near the hilt on the blade.
These have not been made for some time, and only examples found are within museums or perhaps monasteries.
In 1912 Bhutan became recognized as an Indian princely state administratively in the British Raj, but warfare prior to this period seems to have been with neighboring regions Tibetan etc.

In the 1912 map, Bhutan is in green segments. The picture shows priest wearing one of these palag. The Bhutanese flag, land of the 'thunder dragon'.

[kronckew]

They still make & wear swords in Bhutan. Here's the current King wearing his as he serves tea to his people. Note, he traditionally wears it on his RIGHT side. His ministers wear theirs on the left. The blades are normally hairpin laminations. (Men (and occasionally, women) still compete in inter-village archery contests over a hundred yards or so, competing to see who can shoot closest to, or hit a target. They do rather well in the Olympic archery events.

[Jim McDougall]

Excellent info Wayne! Thank you. That makes sense, it seems in most ethnographic areas edged weapons prevail. Not sure what the source I was reading meant, but thats why I posted this, for feedback.

[ausjulius]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Excellent info Wayne! Thank you. That makes sense, it seems in most ethnographic areas edged weapons prevail. Not sure what the source I was reading meant, but thats why I posted this, for feedback.

yeah bhutan is a good example. they are still making them and if you look at bhutanese news p[apers you can see here and there examples of killings or fights, jelous lovers, angry neighbours ect.. with patags being mentioned.
goverment official were typically presented with a sword in bhutan and in the 1970s to cut costs as at the time many amny officials qualified for this .. they tried to import blades form india.. the chrome plated patags you see about soemtimes are apparently mostly indian made.
later that stopped.. now most blacksmiths there are indians and nepalis, bhutanese choosing not to work in this kid of work. nost of the bhutanese sword makers are quite old. but they apparently have soem training program to revitalise sword making.
in 2008 in tibet the tibetian swords were used to attack chinese and you can see footage of lhasa from that date with tibetians armed with swords running though the streets chopping at thier targets.
after the failed uprising many monks encouraged tibetians to destroy their weapons and there was rituial burnings of huge.. i say huge.. 10000 knives and swords all in a pile.. huge piles of arms. some of a very advanced age .. along with lepoard skins, sword belts.. antique firearms.. ect.. very sad.. they piled them up outside temples and burnt them. such a shame. . imagine seeing a silver sheathed sword with red coral dicoraiton and laminated blade burned up to a pile of metal and ash.. sad.