I'd Like to Learn More About This Madura Keris

David · 24th January 2022, 09:31 PM

Thanks for adding your observations Alan. Charles has since added a few more photos that would indeed put us in agreement about this keris. I also agree that "twisted core" is probably a misnomer, but like a few other terms that get thrown around in the collector world it has indeed become the descriptor for this type of forging. Is there a Madurese/Javanese name for this pamor that you are aware of?
The new photos do seem to reveal that this is not an original ensemble. Nothing really unusual about that, but does change some of my thinking on it. I am inclined to see this as an older Madura keris, rather than kamardikan. The age and wear looks genuine to my eyes as far as the photos tell. But as Alan reminds us, in hand it might reveal a different story. Alan has certainly seen and handled far more blades from this region than i. While i have certainly seen pamor like this with kamardikan keris, for me it seems to be a less common in old Madura blades. May not be the best control of this pattern, but from my perspective i would still consider this a desirable keris.

A. G. Maisey · 24th January 2022, 10:18 PM

I'd give it as "Lar Gangsir" = "Cricket Wing", that's Javanese, I do not know the Madura name, I do not understand Basa Madura.

CharlesS · 25th January 2022, 12:26 AM

Thanks, guys! I am grateful for the input.

I noticed the loss of control in the pattern towards the middle of the blade and towards the tip. This loss of control is also seen in some Moro "twist-cores"( for lack of a better term).

Thanks again!

jagabuwana · 25th January 2022, 01:24 AM

Alan, is pamor lar gangsir just another name for pamor ganggeng kanyut?

A. G. Maisey · 25th January 2022, 02:10 AM

No Jaga, ganggeng is different, if we see a good example of ganggeng, it looks pretty much like its name:- 'trailing water weeds', ie, water weeds that have been washed away and are trailing through the water.

With Lar Gangsir we have a much more compact pamor, and there are several recognised patterns for this pamor motif, all made the same way but with varying degrees of manipulation.

jagabuwana · 25th January 2022, 02:47 AM

Ah yep I see the difference. Thanks Alan.

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24th January 2022, 09:31 PM	#1
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,211	Thanks for adding your observations Alan. Charles has since added a few more photos that would indeed put us in agreement about this keris. I also agree that "twisted core" is probably a misnomer, but like a few other terms that get thrown around in the collector world it has indeed become the descriptor for this type of forging. Is there a Madurese/Javanese name for this pamor that you are aware of? The new photos do seem to reveal that this is not an original ensemble. Nothing really unusual about that, but does change some of my thinking on it. I am inclined to see this as an older Madura keris, rather than kamardikan. The age and wear looks genuine to my eyes as far as the photos tell. But as Alan reminds us, in hand it might reveal a different story. Alan has certainly seen and handled far more blades from this region than i. While i have certainly seen pamor like this with kamardikan keris, for me it seems to be a less common in old Madura blades. May not be the best control of this pattern, but from my perspective i would still consider this a desirable keris.

24th January 2022, 10:18 PM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	I'd give it as "Lar Gangsir" = "Cricket Wing", that's Javanese, I do not know the Madura name, I do not understand Basa Madura.

25th January 2022, 12:26 AM	#3
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,854	Thanks, guys! I am grateful for the input. I noticed the loss of control in the pattern towards the middle of the blade and towards the tip. This loss of control is also seen in some Moro "twist-cores"( for lack of a better term). Thanks again!

25th January 2022, 01:24 AM	#4
jagabuwana Member Join Date: Jan 2018 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 290	Alan, is pamor lar gangsir just another name for pamor ganggeng kanyut?

25th January 2022, 02:10 AM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	No Jaga, ganggeng is different, if we see a good example of ganggeng, it looks pretty much like its name:- 'trailing water weeds', ie, water weeds that have been washed away and are trailing through the water. With Lar Gangsir we have a much more compact pamor, and there are several recognised patterns for this pamor motif, all made the same way but with varying degrees of manipulation.

25th January 2022, 02:47 AM	#6
jagabuwana Member Join Date: Jan 2018 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 290	Ah yep I see the difference. Thanks Alan.