four foot rapier blades ???

[urbanspaceman]

Thank-you Fernandez: fascinating.
I was in the armoury down on the riverside in Lisbon a couple of years back (3 actually, now I think about it) and was not overwhelmed by the number of swords on display. Some interesting items definitely but I expected far, far more. Did I visit the wrong place?

[fernando]

Originally Posted by urbanspaceman

Thank-you Fernandez:...

It's Fernando; don't Spanishize me .

[urbanspaceman]

My sincere apologies, how careless.

[Peter Hudson]

Nice to see you on the page here Keith and I recall seeing this detail on your general page on Shotley Bridge Swords.
Dress at court was developing into a shortened jacket. Few people realise that the length of blade was more to do with fashion... As jackets became shorter so did blades. Your document also reveals the term hollows being used instead of the later term fullers.
We are so fortunate in having your input on Shotley Bridge since there is not one shred of remaining detail left standing on any artefact or building relating to the swordmakers except the existence of a local pub ...The Crown and Crossed Swords. In fact the same emblem of the crown and crossed swords was also used by the local maternity hospital The Richard Murray where I was born! I also spent a few years growing up in Shotley Bridge and at one time I lived actually in Wood Street but demolition had started by the time I was about 8 years old.

Regards, Peter Hudson.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by urbanspaceman

My sincere apologies, how careless.

No problem ... at all .
I wouldn't think that, the reduction of swords length in connection with fashion issues, was already in place by the time of these early rapiers.
When we consider such extremely lengthy 'off mark' swords, for as tall as the owner was, would be a challenging task to carry them around in a 'conventinal' manner. I can imagine a servant carrying it for his master to go meet someone for a duel.

[Richard G]

It would be interesting to know if the tang was included. I believe the British Pattern 1908 Cavalry Sword was 42 inches overall.
Best wishes
Richard

[fernando]

The grip (tang) and pommel were included in the 5 palms (spans) law; inequivocal. This is circa 43.3".
As are included in the 'off mark' 7 palms rapiers critical length.


.

[urbanspaceman]

I understand that estocs (or 'tucks') were usually in excess of four feet.
As a matter of note, two points here:
first, there were estocs produced in this country in the 14th century that featured a three or four edged hollowed blade that was decidedly akin to the trefoil smallswords of the 17th and 18th century.
Secondly, they were made by hammering pre-formed stock into a die cut into the top of the anvil: same as was used much later for Brown Bess bayonets..
The tool that was used to shape the upper hollows was called a 'fuller' which, of course, gave rise to the term being used to describe the hollow.
I will take a guess here and suggest the hollow was originally described as 'fullered'.

Peter! Greetings my friend... and of course to you Jim... I hope all is well with you both.
You realise that you are a rare living legend Peter: having lived in Wood Street.
The BBC history department have me on their radar for a documentary, so I will certainly be pointing them in your direction for first-hand input.

Fernando: letters? I can see the link. Any advance on letters?

[Triarii]

Originally Posted by urbanspaceman

Thank-you Fernandez: fascinating.
I was in the armoury down on the riverside in Lisbon a couple of years back (3 actually, now I think about it) and was not overwhelmed by the number of swords on display. Some interesting items definitely but I expected far, far more. Did I visit the wrong place?

The Military Museum down past the cruise ships berths had a reasonable number of swords. Went there in October this year. A few examples attached.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Triarii

The Military Museum down past the cruise ships berths had a reasonable number of swords. Went there in October this year. A few examples attached.

Very fine pictures. I visited the museum three times in the past and they never allowed me to take pictures. Would have they changed the rules ?

[fernando]

Comparing swords on how you can handle each of them is a tricky number. A slight difference in thickness along the whole blade makes a hell of a difference in weight. On the other hand, a sword being large is not necessarily heavy ... contrary to what many think. Still a sword with a rather long blade may be easy to handle when we mock fence with it but, in true combat, we would find ourselves not pondering on the correct distance bwteen us and our foe; even (fighting) space can be an issue.
I have a rapier (estoc like) with a 107 cms. blade, measuring 128 cms. in total. Extremely thin (13X8m/m), it weighs 810 grams. When i handle it, if feels like a feather weigth. But i would certainly not know what to do with such a long thing in a one versus one fight. This is why a determined type of swords require (school) training.
Note, i am no fencer nor swordsman. So don't pay much attention to what i say .

[urbanspaceman]

Originally Posted by fernando

Very fine pictures. I visited the museum three times in the past and they never allowed me to take pictures. Would have they changed the rules ?

When I was there, in December 2018, I was the only person in the building. I was on a cruise ship and it was raining heavily and as I had seen the museum two or three times in the past, and not visited, it seemed like a perfect opportunity.
I photographed everything in the glass case - that didn't amount to much - with no interference from staff who were nowhere to be seen.
There were some magnificent displays in there, and the building itself is glorious, but there were only a handful of blades... and three of them were plugs: fine plugs yes, but surely they have a lot more available in the archives... why not put it out.
Of course, not everyone shares our enthusiasm for weaponry.
When I reduce the file sizes I will post some of the pics I took - other than the ones above.

[urbanspaceman]

Here are four from the Lisbon Armoury:

[fernando]

Excelent pictures; you sure have a steady wrist ... and a good camera .
All i took were from the (open air) cannon patio; one the largest bronze cannon collections out there. But cannons are not your music .

[ulfberth]

Here is such a rapier, I oput it next to a halberd so you can put things in perspective
The total length is 135 cm the blade without the angel 120 cm or 4 feet. The blade section is hollow ground, the maker is Antony PIccininni. The cup pierced as it the pommel all very fine and delicate work to save weight. This rapier can be handled from the wrist and feels just like a small sword.
Long rapiers are rare and very hard to find, lengths can vary from 110 to 145 cm total length.
Most rapiers are around 120 cm total length, all rapiers longer than 130 cm can be considered exceptionally long.
kind regards
Ulfberth