UNUSUAL TULWAR for COMMENT

Norman McCormick · 3rd September 2021, 06:26 PM

Hi,
This sword belongs to me and I am as sure as I can be that it is all original and not a composite. I termed this sword as Sukhela as the blade has the flexibility to conform to the type. The sword form appears to be named after this type of steel. This is a backsword and I would be interested if Stu could confirm if his is a backsword or broadsword.
Regards,
Norman.

Norman McCormick · 3rd September 2021, 06:29 PM

Hi,
This sword belongs to Rick and again as far as I can see it is also a backsword.
Rick questioned whether his example be termed a Dhup.
Regards,
Norman.

Norman McCormick · 3rd September 2021, 06:37 PM

Hi,
Some additional info.
http://web.prm.ox.ac.uk/weapons/inde...121/index.html

https://www.fordemilitaryantiques.co...rd-blade-types

https://www.dnw.co.uk/auction-archiv...&lot_uid=89306

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...+bladed+tulwar

Regards,
Norman.

Jim McDougall · 3rd September 2021, 06:52 PM

Hi Norman,
I am inclined to believe that these 'dhup' are typically backswords (SE) as yours and Rick's, it seems other examples I have seen are single edged.

From the blade appearance of Stu's I am suspecting this is a double edged blade, note the fullers are centrally placed.
In backswords, the fullers are of course inclined toward the back of the blade with the blade resulting in more of a 'wedge' shape.

Norman McCormick · 3rd September 2021, 06:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Hi Norman, From the blade appearance of Stu's I am suspecting this is a double edged blade, note the fullers are centrally placed.

Hi Jim,
I suspect you are absolutely correct, I just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing something.
My Regards,
Norman.

kahnjar1 · 3rd September 2021, 08:45 PM

Hi Norm and Jim,
This sword was SOLD at auction here but is not owned by me. However the blade was described as double edged.
Stu

Rick · 4th September 2021, 01:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Norman McCormick

Hi,
This sword belongs to Rick and again as far as I can see it is also a backsword.
Rick questioned whether his example be termed a Dhup.
Regards,
Norman.

This sword came from Oriental Arms many years ago; Artzi described the steel as very fine grained, low contrast wootz.

ariel · 5th September 2021, 12:11 AM

My understanding ( as per Elgood) that a Firangi ( European blade) migrated North and was called Dhup in the Deccan and Asa Shamshir in North India.
And yes, those were usually quite long, but, just like everything in India, they varied enormously.

Here I am showing my Firangis. It is quite dark outside, I had to turn off some lights in our pretty small " open" room to eliminate flashes on the blades and,- last but not least,- I am a crummy photographer!!!!!!

ariel · 5th September 2021, 12:28 AM

This is an unquestionably real Firangi from the South.
European double-edged blade wit a single wide fuller and a " Genoese"/"Styrian"/ make your guess. trade blade. Blade is marked , see last pic.
No Indian ricasso, blade length 34 "
Good and complete basket handle with intact baluster and leather-wrapped hilt, old, practically congealed leather, if not the original, then definitely from the working life of this Firangi.

ariel · 5th September 2021, 12:58 AM

Here are two more with questionable datings and attributions.
The first pic shows them together: blade length of the long one is 38", definitely qualifying it as Asa Shamshir ( staff sword). The blade has 3 narrow fullers and we can see it on trade blade from Europe, North African and Indian, It is single -edged and has no Indian ricasso. There is a mark almost hidden under the langet: real European trade or local imitation? Pretty basic basket handle, no terminal of the baluster ( lost? never existed?) I suspect the entire sword is a local Indian production, likely Moghul, 18-19th century.

The short one is more interesting. blade length only 24". It is hexagonal that I cannot recall on genuine Indian blades. AFAIK, this pattern stems from the Spanish cavalry sword 1728 pattern, but please feel free to correct me. Three narrow central fullers, pretty crude carving technique, I would guess made locally. No Indian ricasso, double-edged. No marks. My guess those might have been lost when the blade was shortened: the original Spanish blade was 33" long and had small ricassos on both edges.
Typical Tulwar handle, but with an interesting feature: pretty long baluster that is bent down: usually thought to be a feature of the 17th century.
Two rivets with brass washers underneath: one at the grip, another at the quillon block. While some stress the presence of rivets (especially at the quillon block) as a distinctive Afghani feature, the original idea came from the South and just migrated North.
I would think about Deccan/ Maratha and place the whole thing around 17-18 century ( open for discussion). Highly likely, for both the blade and the handle it was not the first marriage:-)

Jim McDougall · 5th September 2021, 08:24 PM

On the top 'firangi' it seems odd that this is double edged, as I had thought the fuller grouping would be at center, rather than along one side as here.
Could this have been a wider blade?
The three dots seen of the marking at forte of course suggest the double arc 'sickles' which typically have three dots at terminus' of each side.
For some reason I had always thought of these khanda (firangi) as either Rajput or Mahratta, but as with most Indian arms, its anybodys guess most of the time.

The second one, as noted, my first inclinations would be North India, Afghan regions as these riveted features are indeed characteristic. The angled pommel stem (baluster) I had always thought Rajput, and the knuckleguard character with 'swans neck' turnback at pommel I have regarded as Northern as well.
The thing is that there were profound connections between Afghan regions and the Deccan, in fact the well known 'paluoar' sabers regarded as 'Afghan' are considered of Deccani influence.

The blade is indeed very much as the Spanish 1728 dragoon blades and as described by Ariel. These were often shortened in this manner for mounting on the espada ancha swords of Colonial Mexico. These most commonly carried the 'Spanish motto' and were hexagonal cross section. I had not considered that India would copy this type cross section, but these fullers are pretty crudely drawn.

On another thread we have been discussing blades from North Africa ending up in India (or on Indian hilts) and the Spanish motto blades are known to have been found in that African sphere, so again, anybodys guess.

Jim McDougall · 5th September 2021, 08:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

This is an unquestionably real Firangi from the South.
European double-edged blade wit a single wide fuller and a " Genoese"/"Styrian"/ make your guess. trade blade. Blade is marked , see last pic.
No Indian ricasso, blade length 34 "
Good and complete basket handle with intact baluster and leather-wrapped hilt, old, practically congealed leather, if not the original, then definitely from the working life of this Firangi.

The blade is probably Styrian, and the markings approximating the so called 'Genoan' sickle marks as commonly found on blades from these regions. I usually consider these double edged blades as intended for schiavona of 17th-18th c.
Likely entered the Mahratta trade sphere.

3rd September 2021, 06:26 PM	#1
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,613	Hi, This sword belongs to me and I am as sure as I can be that it is all original and not a composite. I termed this sword as Sukhela as the blade has the flexibility to conform to the type. The sword form appears to be named after this type of steel. This is a backsword and I would be interested if Stu could confirm if his is a backsword or broadsword. Regards, Norman. Attached Images Last edited by Norman McCormick; 3rd September 2021 at 06:50 PM.

3rd September 2021, 06:29 PM	#2
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,613	Hi, This sword belongs to Rick and again as far as I can see it is also a backsword. Rick questioned whether his example be termed a Dhup. Regards, Norman. Attached Images

5th September 2021, 12:28 AM	#9
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Real firangi. This is an unquestionably real Firangi from the South. European double-edged blade wit a single wide fuller and a " Genoese"/"Styrian"/ make your guess. trade blade. Blade is marked , see last pic. No Indian ricasso, blade length 34 " Good and complete basket handle with intact baluster and leather-wrapped hilt, old, practically congealed leather, if not the original, then definitely from the working life of this Firangi. Attached Images Last edited by ariel; 5th September 2021 at 04:39 PM.

5th September 2021, 12:58 AM	#10
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Two more firangis: Indian? European? Here are two more with questionable datings and attributions. The first pic shows them together: blade length of the long one is 38", definitely qualifying it as Asa Shamshir ( staff sword). The blade has 3 narrow fullers and we can see it on trade blade from Europe, North African and Indian, It is single -edged and has no Indian ricasso. There is a mark almost hidden under the langet: real European trade or local imitation? Pretty basic basket handle, no terminal of the baluster ( lost? never existed?) I suspect the entire sword is a local Indian production, likely Moghul, 18-19th century. The short one is more interesting. blade length only 24". It is hexagonal that I cannot recall on genuine Indian blades. AFAIK, this pattern stems from the Spanish cavalry sword 1728 pattern, but please feel free to correct me. Three narrow central fullers, pretty crude carving technique, I would guess made locally. No Indian ricasso, double-edged. No marks. My guess those might have been lost when the blade was shortened: the original Spanish blade was 33" long and had small ricassos on both edges. Typical Tulwar handle, but with an interesting feature: pretty long baluster that is bent down: usually thought to be a feature of the 17th century. Two rivets with brass washers underneath: one at the grip, another at the quillon block. While some stress the presence of rivets (especially at the quillon block) as a distinctive Afghani feature, the original idea came from the South and just migrated North. I would think about Deccan/ Maratha and place the whole thing around 17-18 century ( open for discussion). Highly likely, for both the blade and the handle it was not the first marriage:-) Attached Images Last edited by ariel; 5th September 2021 at 09:27 PM.

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3rd September 2021, 06:37 PM	#3
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,613	Hi, Some additional info. http://web.prm.ox.ac.uk/weapons/inde...121/index.html https://www.fordemilitaryantiques.co...rd-blade-types https://www.dnw.co.uk/auction-archiv...&lot_uid=89306 http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...+bladed+tulwar Regards, Norman.

3rd September 2021, 06:52 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,193	Hi Norman, I am inclined to believe that these 'dhup' are typically backswords (SE) as yours and Rick's, it seems other examples I have seen are single edged. From the blade appearance of Stu's I am suspecting this is a double edged blade, note the fullers are centrally placed. In backswords, the fullers are of course inclined toward the back of the blade with the blade resulting in more of a 'wedge' shape.

3rd September 2021, 08:45 PM	#6
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,786	Hi Norm and Jim, This sword was SOLD at auction here but is not owned by me. However the blade was described as double edged. Stu

5th September 2021, 12:11 AM	#8
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	My understanding ( as per Elgood) that a Firangi ( European blade) migrated North and was called Dhup in the Deccan and Asa Shamshir in North India. And yes, those were usually quite long, but, just like everything in India, they varied enormously. Here I am showing my Firangis. It is quite dark outside, I had to turn off some lights in our pretty small " open" room to eliminate flashes on the blades and,- last but not least,- I am a crummy photographer!!!!!!

5th September 2021, 08:24 PM	#11
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,193	On the top 'firangi' it seems odd that this is double edged, as I had thought the fuller grouping would be at center, rather than along one side as here. Could this have been a wider blade? The three dots seen of the marking at forte of course suggest the double arc 'sickles' which typically have three dots at terminus' of each side. For some reason I had always thought of these khanda (firangi) as either Rajput or Mahratta, but as with most Indian arms, its anybodys guess most of the time. The second one, as noted, my first inclinations would be North India, Afghan regions as these riveted features are indeed characteristic. The angled pommel stem (baluster) I had always thought Rajput, and the knuckleguard character with 'swans neck' turnback at pommel I have regarded as Northern as well. The thing is that there were profound connections between Afghan regions and the Deccan, in fact the well known 'paluoar' sabers regarded as 'Afghan' are considered of Deccani influence. The blade is indeed very much as the Spanish 1728 dragoon blades and as described by Ariel. These were often shortened in this manner for mounting on the espada ancha swords of Colonial Mexico. These most commonly carried the 'Spanish motto' and were hexagonal cross section. I had not considered that India would copy this type cross section, but these fullers are pretty crudely drawn. On another thread we have been discussing blades from North Africa ending up in India (or on Indian hilts) and the Spanish motto blades are known to have been found in that African sphere, so again, anybodys guess.