Dilemma on a bilbo

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by fernando

Well, we may take it as 'within context'.

Very much so, I agree.
I always think of the author who once told me, 'it is the responsibility of the author of a written work, to present other held views whether contrary or not in order that the reader be fully aware of 'all angles' (so to speak).

In this case, it is the examination of an item, or type, and the case is that it was presumed authentic despite not apparently being so. This deems the case being evidential and illustrating the character of the type is key to readers and collectors as 'need to know' information.

Context, absolutely!

[Dmitry]

Other than the new-ish grip wrap, what is the giveaway here? Looks like a nice period sword to me.

[M ELEY]

I concur with Dmitri. It looks of the period to me except for the wire wrap-

[midelburgo]

Originally Posted by Dmitry

Other than the new-ish grip wrap, what is the giveaway here? Looks like a nice period sword to me.

There are two problems here. The first one is that the cross is of the wrong shape and too perfectly executed. I have never seen a real XVIIIth century 1728 where the transition from the round quillion to the shields surrounding the cross are perfectly simetrical. Usually this is made by soldiering two shield-like pieces to the usual cross. Here, this has been made by adding the quillions to a slightly oval cylindrical piece. This can be seen at the 1910 catalog too.

The second problem is the blade motto. The blade shape is typical from the period shortly before the refoundation of Toledo, 1740-1760, or rather earlier. If the motto would have been x EN SOLINGEN X or X KEISER X or X ENRIQUE COEL X. But that is a blade (and hilt) typical from a time when Toledo was functionally dead.

I believe the 1910 Fabrica de Toledo replica was made copying from a real sword, but this sword sported a Solingen blade, and they wrote instead X EN TOLEDO X.

The only X EN TOLEDO X large cavalry blades I could find were copies of the 1796 model made at the end of the XIXth century and this other next sword, sold some 6 years ago.

It is so much similar to the sword auctioned this week that it could be the same sword, just before being forcibly antiquated. Or it is a twin of the 1910 replica. I repeat, I have not seen that X EN TOLEDO X blade on a 1728 outside these two (one). I do not believe this has 270 years.

I believe the now defunct Madrid Army Museum had a number of the 1910 replicas used to dress mannequins with period uniforms, but as I do not live in Madrid I was a bit unaware of the danger of these replicas. Specially if antiquated.

[midelburgo]

Just to show the point of shields at the cross.

Officers swords (and Guardias de Corps) have often a shield with a lyra like form. Troopers and some officers swords have just semicircles.

[midelburgo]

Some older 1728s.

[Dmitry]

I see what you are saying.
The junction/quillon block where the pas de ane and quillons emanate is too perfectly round in the area I circled. It was probably cast, while some of the other examples you posted were wrought.
If F.ca de Toledo did have this particular sword in their catalog, they must've made more than a few. Although, to be fair, the catalog sword isn't the same as the one you bought. The shell is more shallow on the catalog sword, the grip is different, the knuckle bow does not reach the pommel.

The second sword you posted, the unaged one, is the twin of the one you bought.

[midelburgo]

The thing with Toledo replicas is that they made very few a year but they lasted for something over 40 years. So it is to expect that some differences were introduced along. The shells can be more open and they will look flater on the side picture. The grip could be made with and without the barretes and knuclebow brought higher, just as real period swords.

Before c1905 all Toledo products were dated, and they carried the Fabrica de Toledo mark. After c1930 they changed the stamp to FNT and a logo. In between, marking was fuzzier, and probably easier to erase.

As you say, quillons (I was writing langlets, sorry) and the cross block could be cast. The only way to be sure would be to handle the sword. I have contacted the auction house, that has a 14 day period to reject the piece (after arrival) and it is perfectly possible to cancel also before even payment. I have forwarded them my opinions on the sword being a replica and asked for cancellation. So it seems I will not handle it. Probably it will be on the market again.