Sword of the Last Armenian King: 14th century

M.carter · 30th May 2006, 10:43 PM

Beautiful first post Tsubame1, very friendly. I said, and still stick to my claim, that this is a Turkish made, 17th century blade, with later Persian fittings, and probably much later gold inlay. This isnt out of pure speculation, but according to Anthony C. Tirri's* great book, "Islamic Weapons, Maghrib to Moghul" (see page 130). The claim that it belonged to a 14th century Armenian King is still unproven, and never be proven, I believe.

*Anthony C. Tirri is a scholar of Islamic arms and history, who has handled more pieces than anyone I know probably, and his collection contains hundreds of beautiful pieces.

Rivkin · 30th May 2006, 11:39 PM

Well, as a big mouth guy, I replied on swordforum, basically repeating what I said here. Here I just probably tell 3 anecdotes, two happened with me in real life, 1 is an old georgian story.

When I was interested in nihonto I once saw a picture of a martial artists holding an unusual sword - judging by proportions the blade alone was 41 inch or so. I asked one of the collegues of the martial artist on the photograph about what kind of sword is it. Response was series of "how you can judge a sword based on the photographs ??? How can you ask such disrespectful questions, while the martial artists is a great ...., whose ansestors where strategists during the civil war ? What evidence do you have that this sword ...". Well, I did not get any information on this sword, but I certainly learned not to ask questions in nihonto community, unless one wants to get this kind of response. Just sent you stuff to NBHTK and bow before the great senseis.

Second anecdote relates to an armenian kindjal recently posted on the forum. I have decided to ask one very prominent (probably _the_ most prominent) armenian professor for his opinion on the grammar and language on the kindjal. Him being a dashnak I expected something bad to happen (sorry, my predisposition towards them

), but he was 200% helpful, polite and truly superb in his analysis. However, he and his students, not knowing much about weapons approached this kindjal (qajar kama) from historical prospective and cautiously identified it as probably made in New-Julfa, may be made right post Abbas time. They had only the best in mind, but based on historical arguments they identified the kama as being 200 years older than it most likely is. Trust me, if this would ever appear with his signature, _no one_ would be able to convince the world that there is a shadow of doubt related to this object being early XVIIth century artefact.

The last anecdote is just a georgian joke. There are actually quite a few of them, don't know which one to tell. There is really funny (for me) about great armenian poet-physicist Gazon Zaseyan. There is one about archeological dig, where one can see a poster "Komrades Georgians ! Komrades Armenians ! Please, stop damping your utensils and porcelin in our archeological dig - just because you do so, this place will not become more 'historicall georgian' or armenian".

ariel · 31st May 2006, 12:00 AM

A bit of history: Mechitarists are Armenian Roman Catholics. The order was established in 1701 in Istanbul, by one Mechitar Petrosian whose life mission was to convert Orthodox Armenians into Roman Catholicism. For that he was expelled by the Armenian community and the Venetians gave him the St. Lazzarro in 1717. Mechitarists collect Armenian artifacts and provide education to Armenian boys who are willing to convert.
This, in my opinion, is yet another piece of the puzzle: the connection with the Western, Catholic sources and the bias to prove that ancient Armenian kings were Catholics. The fact that Mechitarists accept the Leon V/14th century attribution of this sword proves nothing about it's true provenance. They wanted it to be Leon's! How many times all of us bought embarrassing junk on e-bay because we wanted it to be our Dream Blade?
I am sure that they did, and continue to do it, out of good intentions and not for any nepharious purposes or perpetration of a hoax. Blind faith, however, is not a good councelor. They could have brought an experienced museum curator who would have given them the facts. But... what religious faith had ever tried to puncture it's own balloon?
IMHO, the claim that this sword is Armenian is incorrect: there is nothing Armenian about it except the inscription. The claim that it is Persian is even more problematic: it ignores it's Kilic-like form and the astounding similarity with other Istanbul-made pieces of the same time period. To form conclusions on the basis of Damascus assumes that only Persians were capable of making it. The claim that it is 14th century is embarrassing, to say the least
Still, I admire Tsubame1 for his true Bushido spirit of loyalty to his master.
No hard feelings and no seppuku, OK?

30th May 2006, 10:43 PM	#1
M.carter Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 176	Beautiful first post Tsubame1, very friendly. I said, and still stick to my claim, that this is a Turkish made, 17th century blade, with later Persian fittings, and probably much later gold inlay. This isnt out of pure speculation, but according to Anthony C. Tirri's* great book, "Islamic Weapons, Maghrib to Moghul" (see page 130). The claim that it belonged to a 14th century Armenian King is still unproven, and never be proven, I believe. Anthony C. Tirri is a scholar of Islamic arms and history, who has handled more pieces than anyone I know probably, and his collection contains hundreds of beautiful pieces. Last edited by M.carter; 30th May 2006 at 11:44 PM.*

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30th May 2006, 11:39 PM	#2
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	Well, as a big mouth guy, I replied on swordforum, basically repeating what I said here. Here I just probably tell 3 anecdotes, two happened with me in real life, 1 is an old georgian story. When I was interested in nihonto I once saw a picture of a martial artists holding an unusual sword - judging by proportions the blade alone was 41 inch or so. I asked one of the collegues of the martial artist on the photograph about what kind of sword is it. Response was series of "how you can judge a sword based on the photographs ??? How can you ask such disrespectful questions, while the martial artists is a great ...., whose ansestors where strategists during the civil war ? What evidence do you have that this sword ...". Well, I did not get any information on this sword, but I certainly learned not to ask questions in nihonto community, unless one wants to get this kind of response. Just sent you stuff to NBHTK and bow before the great senseis. Second anecdote relates to an armenian kindjal recently posted on the forum. I have decided to ask one very prominent (probably _the_ most prominent) armenian professor for his opinion on the grammar and language on the kindjal. Him being a dashnak I expected something bad to happen (sorry, my predisposition towards them ), but he was 200% helpful, polite and truly superb in his analysis. However, he and his students, not knowing much about weapons approached this kindjal (qajar kama) from historical prospective and cautiously identified it as probably made in New-Julfa, may be made right post Abbas time. They had only the best in mind, but based on historical arguments they identified the kama as being 200 years older than it most likely is. Trust me, if this would ever appear with his signature, _no one_ would be able to convince the world that there is a shadow of doubt related to this object being early XVIIth century artefact. The last anecdote is just a georgian joke. There are actually quite a few of them, don't know which one to tell. There is really funny (for me) about great armenian poet-physicist Gazon Zaseyan. There is one about archeological dig, where one can see a poster "Komrades Georgians ! Komrades Armenians ! Please, stop damping your utensils and porcelin in our archeological dig - just because you do so, this place will not become more 'historicall georgian' or armenian".

31st May 2006, 12:00 AM	#3
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	A bit of history: Mechitarists are Armenian Roman Catholics. The order was established in 1701 in Istanbul, by one Mechitar Petrosian whose life mission was to convert Orthodox Armenians into Roman Catholicism. For that he was expelled by the Armenian community and the Venetians gave him the St. Lazzarro in 1717. Mechitarists collect Armenian artifacts and provide education to Armenian boys who are willing to convert. This, in my opinion, is yet another piece of the puzzle: the connection with the Western, Catholic sources and the bias to prove that ancient Armenian kings were Catholics. The fact that Mechitarists accept the Leon V/14th century attribution of this sword proves nothing about it's true provenance. They wanted it to be Leon's! How many times all of us bought embarrassing junk on e-bay because we wanted it to be our Dream Blade? I am sure that they did, and continue to do it, out of good intentions and not for any nepharious purposes or perpetration of a hoax. Blind faith, however, is not a good councelor. They could have brought an experienced museum curator who would have given them the facts. But... what religious faith had ever tried to puncture it's own balloon? IMHO, the claim that this sword is Armenian is incorrect: there is nothing Armenian about it except the inscription. The claim that it is Persian is even more problematic: it ignores it's Kilic-like form and the astounding similarity with other Istanbul-made pieces of the same time period. To form conclusions on the basis of Damascus assumes that only Persians were capable of making it. The claim that it is 14th century is embarrassing, to say the least Still, I admire Tsubame1 for his true Bushido spirit of loyalty to his master. No hard feelings and no seppuku, OK?