Curious marriage: a Kard

ariel · 4th February 2021, 06:24 AM

Either my eyes betray me, or there is something strange with the blade.
It has a blunt ricasso, so it could not have been shortened from that end.
But the fuller is very short and does not seem to run into the point, so even that end is original. Either it was indeed a saber blade ( Western, not Oriental), with a very short fuller ( in which case colleagues from the European section might be of help), or a bayonet(???).
You are correct, the chasing motifs are Caucasian, and the niello seems to point that way, but the end of the scabbard is tilted up ( Turkish?).

If the handle is from a walking stick, that would hint at other " foreign" parts.

I cannot find any traces of anything Central Asian.

Rich · 4th February 2021, 12:00 PM

Interesting piece. Put a cross guard on the blade and it becomes an European hunting knife.
Rich

mahratt · 4th February 2021, 12:23 PM

A few more knives from Central Asia in a similar scabard^

Kubur · 4th February 2021, 12:46 PM

Plus the iron mountings with gold Koftgari, Central Asian and /or Persian?

mahratt · 4th February 2021, 02:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kubur

Plus the iron mountings with gold Koftgari, Central Asian and /or Persian?

Persian for me...

mariusgmioc · 4th February 2021, 05:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mahratt

A few more knives from Central Asia in a similar scabard^

I cannot find a single one with a similar scabbard. Well, maybe the one on the left, but only because of the nielo.

Anyhow, this is a true "chimera" to me.

The scabbard looks Caucasian... I guess...
the blade looks European... I guess again...
and the hilt looks... I am out of guesses...

Interested Party · 5th February 2021, 12:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

I cannot find a single one with a similar scabbard. Well, maybe the one on the left, but only because of the nielo.

Anyhow, this is a true "chimera" to me.

The scabbard looks Caucasian... I guess...
the blade looks European... I guess again...
and the hilt looks... I am out of guesses...

The blade and the overall look remind me of Scandinavian patterns. I don't believe it is, the blade maybe, but the look is there.....I think it is the contour of the sheath, the line of the handle to the blade, but not the materials that make the sheath and handle. The bolster vs the Scandinavian ferule. I see the niello and the onion blossom at the tip for Caucasian influence.
I would love to know this piece's story. A chimera.

Gonzoalder you always find interesting pieces.

mahratt · 5th February 2021, 05:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

I cannot find a single one with a similar scabbard. Well, maybe the one on the left, but only because of the nielo.

Correctly. Because there is not a single pchak in the photo. Only kards and karud.
But, in Caucasus, I cannot remember knives of such a shape that would fit this scabbard ... But in Central Asia there are such knives

By the way, I think from the knives that I showed in the photo against the background of the carpet, there is no question that their scabbard is from Central Asia?

Interested Party · 7th February 2021, 02:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mahratt

Correctly. Because there is not a single pchak in the photo. Only kards and karud.
But, in Caucasus, I cannot remember knives of such a shape that would fit this scabbard ... But in Central Asia there are such knives

By the way, I think from the knives that I showed in the photo against the background of the carpet, there is no question that their scabbard is from Central Asia?

What area did the niello for central Asian scabbards? Or was it a technique that was spread over a vast region without an epicenter to help pinpoint the craftsmanship?

mahratt · 8th February 2021, 03:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Interested Party

What area did the niello for central Asian scabbards? Or was it a technique that was spread over a vast region without an epicenter to help pinpoint the craftsmanship?

These were large cities that were capitals of khanates: Bukhara and Khiva. Although it is possible that individual masters could work in such a technique in other smaller cities as well.

ariel · 3rd March 2021, 07:18 AM

There were famous Bakhmud and Abdalla Tubchiev brothers who went to Central Asian khanates ( Bukhara, I vaguely remember) at the end of 19 century. They worked there as jewelers. In Central Asia they learned enameling techniques and brought it back to the Caucasus. In exchange they taught the locals Caucasian silverwork and niello.
They also worked for several years in Istanbul.
Both died when the Caucasus became “ Soviet” and all those years they made enameled scabbards and handles for the local and “ Moscow” bonzas. Thus, this kindjal is very, very highly likely can be dated to the beginning of the 20th century or even later.

It is almost always the itinerant masters who introduce new techniques, decoration motives, materials etc.

Just like Persian bladesmiths at the Moghul court who taught their Indian colleagues how to forge fancy wootz patterns instead of the customary “salt and pepper” one.

4th February 2021, 12:23 PM	#3
mahratt Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Russia Posts: 1,042	A few more knives from Central Asia in a similar scabard^ Attached Images

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4th February 2021, 06:24 AM	#1
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Either my eyes betray me, or there is something strange with the blade. It has a blunt ricasso, so it could not have been shortened from that end. But the fuller is very short and does not seem to run into the point, so even that end is original. Either it was indeed a saber blade ( Western, not Oriental), with a very short fuller ( in which case colleagues from the European section might be of help), or a bayonet(???). You are correct, the chasing motifs are Caucasian, and the niello seems to point that way, but the end of the scabbard is tilted up ( Turkish?). If the handle is from a walking stick, that would hint at other " foreign" parts. I cannot find any traces of anything Central Asian.

4th February 2021, 12:00 PM	#2
Rich Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: comfortably at home, USA Posts: 432	Interesting piece. Put a cross guard on the blade and it becomes an European hunting knife. Rich

4th February 2021, 12:46 PM	#4
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	Plus the iron mountings with gold Koftgari, Central Asian and /or Persian?

3rd March 2021, 07:18 AM	#11
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	There were famous Bakhmud and Abdalla Tubchiev brothers who went to Central Asian khanates ( Bukhara, I vaguely remember) at the end of 19 century. They worked there as jewelers. In Central Asia they learned enameling techniques and brought it back to the Caucasus. In exchange they taught the locals Caucasian silverwork and niello. They also worked for several years in Istanbul. Both died when the Caucasus became “ Soviet” and all those years they made enameled scabbards and handles for the local and “ Moscow” bonzas. Thus, this kindjal is very, very highly likely can be dated to the beginning of the 20th century or even later. It is almost always the itinerant masters who introduce new techniques, decoration motives, materials etc. Just like Persian bladesmiths at the Moghul court who taught their Indian colleagues how to forge fancy wootz patterns instead of the customary “salt and pepper” one.