Unmarked P1796 L.C. Troopers Sabre

[scinde]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Thanks Bryce,
Here's what I found in Robson, p.190:
"...from 1796 onwards, swords from whatever source had to be inspected for quality at the Tower and thus view marks began to appear -initially in the form of a crown over a single number. On many cavalry pattern 1796 swords, the view marks are not readily discernible, but whether this is because they were never stamped on or because they have disappeared with cleaning or refurbishing is not east to determine".

Also,"...from 1796 cavalry swords were often purchased in bulk by the Board of Ordnance and, in consequence, many pattern 1796 light and heavy cavalry swords bear no makers name".

It seems that in this period, and later, many swords purchased by the EIC were of course not inspected nor marked by the Tower. As far as I have known, swords were not marked by the Company, and as David Harding ("Small Arms of the East India Company") told me some years ago, 'swords were NOT marked in any way by the EIC'.

The only marks were the familiar 'bale marks' (the quartered heart with VEIC) as used on goods and firearms (incl. bayonets).

Even swords made for native cavalry units were not inspected by BO, and went directly to outfitters and arsenals in India. The only marks seen were ISD (india Stores Depot) but even that was inconsistent.


Perhaps these options might offer some solutions to these unmarked swords as being discussed.

Rather than an individual approach, I'll just wish all concerned a better time than was had last year.

In terms of the EIC equivalent of the British 1796 Light Cavalry sword, the earliest version was designated Pattern No. 3, and swords of this pattern bore inspection marks that are virtually the same as those on the B of O examples. As both the British issue swords and the EIC issue swords are virtually identical, it's near impossible in this day and age to say which is which, unless a particular sword is regimentally marked.

After the introduction of the 1821 Pattern LC sword, the same type of inspection marks were applied to both the B of O 1821 Patterns and the EICo equivalent; and again it's virtually impossible to say which is which unless regimentally marked.

From my own experience in looking at earlier identified EICo pattern swords, it's certainly the case that the inspection marks are barely legible, so reasonable to suggest that in the case of early swords, they may have been completely worn away by continual cleaning.

Circa 1832-33 the EIC pattern numbering system changed, at which time the (1796 type) EICo Pattern No. 3 was re-designated Pattern No. 301; and the EICo. 1821 Pattern was designated Pattern No. 303.

Mole was certainly one of the makers who produced swords of the (1796 patter) EICo Pattern No. 301 sword, when it was re-issued early 1840s. One characteristic of the EICo Pattern No. 301 swords, is that the grip timber is carved with finger grooves, as apposed to the finger bumps being created by cord wrapped around the timber grip under the leather covering.

After circa 1856, swords (arms) for the EICo were procured via the British War Department, for as long as the EICo control of India lasted. Therefore the style of inspection mark changed again and the EIC system of date coding and inspector identification disappeared. Thus we can find EICo swords bearing the inspection mark of a capital "I" surmounted by a Broad Arrow.

Also from my own experience, I've found that swords were often regimentally marked on the front of back of the quillon, on the knuckle bow, on the back-piece, or on broader parts of an open bar hilt. Based on my own observations, some Indian Army Bengal cavalry swords produced in the mid 1880s, have the regimental designation marked on the ricasso.

The stirrup-hilted swords such as used by the 13th Bengal and the 17th Bengal Lancers are not a 1796 pattern, and the greater majority of the blades marked J. Bourne & Son were produced by Mole for Bourne; whereby reference to certain pattern swords made for Bourne by Mole, are found in the Mole records. And these include stirrup--hilted swords (13th Lancers), those with an 1821 light cavalry type hilt, also those with an 1853 type (solid tang) hilt, and others.

Swords of the (1796 Pattern - EICo No.301) made by Mole were carried by Indian Officers and Sowars of the Governor -Generals Body Guard Bengal around the turn of the century, and actually appear in a photo circa 1897. The only marking on a surviving example recorded by me, has a Mole trade marking very lightly stamped on the back edge of the blade near the hilt.

Gordon

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by scinde

Rather than an individual approach, I'll just wish all concerned a better time than was had last year.

In terms of the EIC equivalent of the British 1796 Light Cavalry sword, the earliest version was designated Pattern No. 3, and swords of this pattern bore inspection marks that are virtually the same as those on the B of O examples. As both the British issue swords and the EIC issue swords are virtually identical, it's near impossible in this day and age to say which is which, unless a particular sword is regimentally marked.

After the introduction of the 1821 Pattern LC sword, the same type of inspection marks were applied to both the B of O 1821 Patterns and the EICo equivalent; and again it's virtually impossible to say which is which unless regimentally marked.

From my own experience in looking at earlier identified EICo pattern swords, it's certainly the case that the inspection marks are barely legible, so reasonable to suggest that in the case of early swords, they may have been completely worn away by continual cleaning.

Circa 1832-33 the EIC pattern numbering system changed, at which time the (1796 type) EICo Pattern No. 3 was re-designated Pattern No. 301; and the EICo. 1821 Pattern was designated Pattern No. 303.

Mole was certainly one of the makers who produced swords of the (1796 patter) EICo Pattern No. 301 sword, when it was re-issued early 1840s. One characteristic of the EICo Pattern No. 301 swords, is that the grip timber is carved with finger grooves, as apposed to the finger bumps being created by cord wrapped around the timber grip under the leather covering.

After circa 1856, swords (arms) for the EICo were procured via the British War Department, for as long as the EICo control of India lasted. Therefore the style of inspection mark changed again and the EIC system of date coding and inspector identification disappeared. Thus we can find EICo swords bearing the inspection mark of a capital "I" surmounted by a Broad Arrow.

Also from my own experience, I've found that swords were often regimentally marked on the front of back of the quillon, on the knuckle bow, on the back-piece, or on broader parts of an open bar hilt. Based on my own observations, some Indian Army Bengal cavalry swords produced in the mid 1880s, have the regimental designation marked on the ricasso.

The stirrup-hilted swords such as used by the 13th Bengal and the 17th Bengal Lancers are not a 1796 pattern, and the greater majority of the blades marked J. Bourne & Son were produced by Mole for Bourne; whereby reference to certain pattern swords made for Bourne by Mole, are found in the Mole records. And these include stirrup--hilted swords (13th Lancers), those with an 1821 light cavalry type hilt, also those with an 1853 type (solid tang) hilt, and others.

Swords of the (1796 Pattern - EICo No.301) made by Mole were carried by Indian Officers and Sowars of the Governor -Generals Body Guard Bengal around the turn of the century, and actually appear in a photo circa 1897. The only marking on a surviving example recorded by me, has a Mole trade marking very lightly stamped on the back edge of the blade near the hilt.

Gordon

Gordon, thank you so much for this fantastic and detailed insight into these checkered wood grip sabers, which as you confirm here indeed were used by the 13th Bengal Lancers.
As I have mentioned before, I had the great honor of visiting the late Brigadier Francis Ingall who was an officer with the 6th Bengal Lancers in the Khyber Province in 1930. He led an all out cavalry charge on the Khyber Plain in 1931, and wrote "Last of the Bengal Lancers".
The 6th had been amalgamated with the 13th, and he showed me an identical saber which was clearly marked for 13th BL.

The reason I added this example in this thread was to show that the M1796 style saber remained in favor in the British cavalry in India into the 20th c.

The detail you have provided has given me great material to add to my notes on these, and is very much appreciated.