Cuphilt sword for comment

[Jim McDougall]

Shayde, that is an absolutely thorough and fascinating look into this topic, and especially interesting on the rompepuntas from a fencing perspective. Thank you for going into this detail as I find these aspects really intriguing.
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Very good points on the dust guard situation also, its always good to hear these insights from a swordsman.

Well noted on these Spanish colonial swords as far as the American Revolution, the Spaniards were far more involved in these matters than is commonly known. While not necessarily involved formally in large degree with forces (except later in a few cases) they were very supportive financially and with supplies, weapons etc. "Swords and Blades of the American Revolution" (Nuemann, 1973) gives revealing insights into the spectrum of European swords that found use. I dont recall cuphilts, but where there were bilbo's, there were cup hilts.

[M ELEY]

Excellent discussion, gentlemen! I have also always been drawn like a moth to the flame with these Spanish colonial pieces. What they may lack in their refinement (compared to their European brethren), they more than make up for in their colorful past! Will, it sounds like you've been bit by the Spanish colonial bug! Welcome to the club! We have our own hats!

Shayne, that is a fascinating approach to collecting! It is interesting, as noted, the differences in these New World pieces versus their more decorative cousins. It would seem that both use in the western hemisphere in the 'backwaters', such frivolities were not needed, so we see a munitions grade piece built for function and not necessarily to impress. As far as time period, as Jim has pointed out, they saw a long life on this side of the pond. Cup hilts probably started coming over as soon as the early 17th century, but the first types were probably the European versions. The true Caribbean models probably developed mid-17th? and used all the way up to the end of the 18th c. Harold Peterson covers their usage in the Americas in his volume "Arms and Armor in Colonial America 1526-1783, and of course there's Brincherhoff's "Swords and Blades in Colonial America" are great resource materials.

My blade has a lot of 'bend' to it when flexed and would work excellently as a thrusting weapon, but its edge could also slash. Although sword dueling on the deck ala Errol Flynn is a fantasy, as Jim states these would have been carried also by soldiers guarding port garrisons like St Augustine and San Juan. They undoubtedly saw sea service in that the Treasure Fleets had soldiers aboard guarding the specie. Strictly speaking, I feel they could have been used quite effectively, but not in overhand slashing (the decks of ships were too tight, the ropes and spars just waiting to catch a swung blade). When ships were about to be attacked and boarded, they almost always put up thick netting like curtains to discourage the boarding parties. The thick cordage attached to the rail and ran up to the upper spars, creating a weblike cover over the exposed deck. The nets often had wire enmeshed in it to add to its toughness. Aggressors clambering up over the side would thus be met with a protective screen with defenders armed with boarding pikes (short spears of 6-7' length) stabbing at them through the rigging. Now imagine these rapiers, with their long blades, thrusting through the gaps to "discourage" the onslaught! Make no mistakes, sea weapons, just like other weapon types (cavalry swords, briquets, gunner's stilettos) had their usages. Boarding axes were fire/deck cleaning tools first and weapons second. A belay pin held the rigging in place, but made an excellent club in combat. I feel the cup hilts could hold their own in these very concentrated, very unique battle settings.

[M ELEY]

Shayde, you mentioned the possibility it is marked? Interesting. Perhaps a very conservative cleaning of the area you suspect??

[shayde78]

Originally Posted by M ELEY

Shayde, you mentioned the possibility it is marked? Interesting. Perhaps a very conservative cleaning of the area you suspect??

The way the corrosion looks in the fuller suggests there could be font there. However, I cannot get it to photograph in a meaningful way, and I'm not sure how to gently get down to that level of the metal to be able to determine. I'll see if I can play around enough with lighting to get the faint trace I think I see to appear in a photograph. Of course, I may well be chasing a ghost...or a phantom that was never there to begin with

Also, thank you for the details concerning weapons use on the decks of a ship. Following your posts over the years, I know you've built your knowledge and have become something of an expert in this regard. The insights are appreciated!

[Victrix]

Originally Posted by shayde78

The way the corrosion looks in the fuller suggests there could be font there. However, I cannot get it to photograph in a meaningful way, and I'm not sure how to gently get down to that level of the metal to be able to determine. I'll see if I can play around enough with lighting to get the faint trace I think I see to appear in a photograph. Of course, I may well be chasing a ghost...or a phantom that was never there to begin with

Also, thank you for the details concerning weapons use on the decks of a ship. Following your posts over the years, I know you've built your knowledge and have become something of an expert in this regard. The insights are appreciated!

The patina looks quite attractive as it is. Perhaps something appealing about having a look of something salvaged from the salt sea water.

You could try looking at the blade from different angles and direct a torchlight on it. Another trick is to put a blank piece of paper on it and rub a pencil or a charcoal on top, although the surface might be a bit uneven for that.