Spanish Dirk?

[Philip]

Originally Posted by shayde78

Thank you, Philip and Fernando. Again, my attribution of this piece to Spain was based upon the hilt bearing similarities to other knives made in the region, including the example I provided from the reference book. Nothing matched entirely, which is why I wanted to seek feedback here.

Philip, I agree it is a long shot, and the similarities are not extensive, BUT the profile of the pugio does indeed have some parallels to the dagger in question. In fact, more so than anything else I've been able to find, at least regarding the junction with the hilt and the concave ricasso. Great point to make, even if there is no direct link, it is interesting to see certain forms represented/repeated on disparate pieces.

Thanks again

Yes, I don't dispute that going from pugio to this is a very far reach. But I figured it might be worth throwing out there anyway.

Having looked at the other contributions, showing certain analogies to Thai dagger, Philippine knives, and guards on Thai lances, those are intriguing and history shows that those cultural areas were, over time, affected by influences from Europe (think Portugal, Spain, and the Netherlands). So we can't definitely rule out anything. After all, we see Sri Lankan polearms with heads clearly patterned after European partizans of the 16th cent., and French bush knives of the 19th cent. with falchion-like blades (douk-douk) shaped just like those on Vietnamese weapons (dao truong)

In particular, I can't but help notice that the barrel-shaped form of the grip, with ferrules, is one of those elements: lots of central and northern Philippine knives seem to have it, as well as those plug-bayonet-like hunting knives popular in 16th-17th cent. southern Europe. But what about the WORKMANSHIP AND DECORATION of the hilt of the dagger that is the subject of this thread -- the longitudinal ribbing with applied metal inlays?

A very similar style appears on the hilt of the Spanish knife illustrated in the image out of the book which was posted earlier. Just out of curiosity, has anyone seen this decorative technique on the hilt of one of those Philippine or Thai daggers which otherwise have a strong resemblance?

I've noticed close-spaced longitudinal ribbing on the ebony or rosewood grips of some Vietnamese and southern Chinese fighting knives but none of those exhibit any metal inlay.

[Jim McDougall]

It is most interesting to read these very astute entries with observations showing various possibilities with combined influences from numerous countries and regions. With the profound trade and colonialism in the places noted, I think it is important to remember that artisans from these many places often were relocated in these situations, and the combining of their favored styling and designs were inevitably inherent in the weapons they fashioned.

This is one of the intrigues of studying ethnographic weapons, the noting and identifying of these elements into a kind of fabric incorporating the cultures and influences represented in the weapon at hand.

In such weapons, a concise or specific classification is often not feasible, but better identified to the majority category with subsequent features added.

[DaveA]

To my eye this strongly resembles a plug bayonet, probably Spanish, late 18th to early 19th C. These had dual use as daggers or could be mounted in the barrel of a gun, for example, when hunting to safely dispatch a wounded animal.

Dave A

[fernando]

Originally Posted by DaveA

To my eye this strongly resembles a plug bayonet, probably Spanish, late 18th to early 19th C. These had dual use as daggers or could be mounted in the barrel of a gun, for example, when hunting to safely dispatch a wounded animal...Dave A

Not the right shape, i am afraid, David.
Plug bayonet grips must swell all the way to the guard, to progressively 'plug' into the barrel. And their purpose was more to defend the hunter from the wounded animal strike back, in lack of time to reload the gun !.


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[carlos]

My first impression was filipino origen, the albacete knives have similar form, but I think this piece is from Philippines.
Carlos

[Jim McDougall]

As Fernando has well observed in post #28, this example being discussed is clearly not a plug bayonet as the swell in the grip is opposed to the shape required for insertion into a gun barrel.

However, the plug bayonet, much as many weapon forms and features, remained in use traditionally much longer than many realize with Spaniards.
There were examples vestigially made in the plug bayonet form even into the 19th c. which continued to serve as a hunting knife, and the designs often would lean toward the features of other examples of knives in use at the time.

I think observers here have compellingly shown the example in discussion as probably of Philippine origin, and that features such as the concave rebates at the base of the blade are a feature seen in other examples of these types found in Philippine context.

The Spanish influences in arms and even armor in many cases (Moro examples) is well established in the Philippine archipelago with their colonial presence there until the end of the 19th c. as Mark has pointed out in #9.
The features of some Albacete knives no doubt crept into designs along with of course other Spanish and perhaps Asian features in the producing of these knives/dirks.

[fernando]

So true that plug bayonets remained in use well into the XIX century, serving as hunting knives but preserving their original shape, eventually made with the finest materials.
... As may be seen in the uniform of Spanish King Alfonso XIII (1886-1931) gamekeepers, those with apparent ivory grips, and the two luxury examples residing in the Portuguese Ducal Palace of Vila viçosa (Toledo production 1859-1863).


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[RobT]

Ian,

I have a dagger just like yours and, like yours, mine is missing the hilt wrap. I have seen a few of these daggers over the years, so I guess that they are popular but I don't ever recall seeing one with the hilt wrap present. Perhaps the sheath for my dagger will help to confirm your surmise of origin or even narrow it down a bit.

Sincerely,
RobT

[RobT]

Hi All,

Here is a dagger from my collection which also features dual concave rebates at the forte. The sides of the blade at the concavities are flat (about 1/8" [3.175mm] thick). Given the style of the sheath and the engraved decoration on the blade at the forte, I had always considered the piece to be from the Philippines. The blade measures about 12.875" (327.025mm) long and is of flattened diamond cross section until the engraved design. The iron cross guard is octagonal and measures about 1.5" high x .875" wide (38.1 x 22.225mm). The hilt (with pommel) measures about 4.25" (107.95mm) and is, save for the brass spiral wrap, iron. The pommel is a roughly circular, incised disk. It is surmounted by a flat iron washer which holds the peened over tang.

Sincerely,
RobT

[Ian]

This one is similar to the one shown by RobT although more recent in manufacture. I believe this one is from northern or central Luzon and is missing the braided wire on the hilt. No sheath.


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