Re: Posting photographs; "Keris Ligan".

Anthony G. · 6th May 2020, 06:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mickey the Finn

A most interesting re-visitation of the Balinese "keris ligan" topic. Once I shake off my sluggardly stupor and get my inventory organized, I'll photograph and post pics of the one (or two) I'm currently the caretaker/custodian of. One I believe is from Bali or Lombok. The other is more definitely Javanese, and may not quite fit the criteria. Actually, both have a warangka, but... When I get around to photographing and posting the pics... But then, I recall that Mr. Maisey, for good reason, doesn't post photos of his keris… I myself have never posted naked pictures of myself anywhere online, at any time, for that matter. Now that I think about it, let me posit a question to the moderators and to anyone else who would like to "weigh in": is it "okay" to post photos of a keris I currently "own", which were taken by a third party prior to my acquisition of the keris, when such photos were taken for the consideration of prospective "buyers" of the keris?
I understand that there are multiple ways in which this question could be understood. I'm not so much concerned with the legalities of copyright (I've not asked permission of the photographer, but I certainly would do, prior to posting any third party photographs) as I am with the traditional, moral, and ethical aspects. My former fiancée once gave me a portfolio of photographs of herself, taken many years before we had ever met. I never showed a single one of them to anyone, and never posted any online. She took them back after breaking off our engagement, along with her engagement ring; all of this is unquestionably within the bounds of propriety and common practice in the "western world". If I were to consider the matter from a jurisprudential perspective, I'd say that as long as permission from the original third-party photographer of the keris had been granted, posting the photos would be "okay". The traditional, moral, and ethical perspective in "the home of the keris" is what I'm more interested in. It's 07:32 05-03-2020, and I haven't slept yet; I've spent several hours in trying to word this post as precisely as I can, but I've not been able to attain the degree of precision I would like. I hope the readers will understand the gist of the sort of feedback I'm soliciting.
Thank you.

I was told that many keris owners especially from SEAsia do not want to share their bilah full photo.

Reason: concern that the other keris makers might copy the design and thus causing the keris bilah to lose it's 'uniqueness' especially if the keris is newly made.

Another factor is due to spiritual reason.

Mickey the Finn · 24th May 2020, 12:17 PM

My thanks to those who have provided feedback.
After I'd submitted my post, it occurred to me that my question regarding the posting of photos was actually a sort of "fishing for a loophole".
My reasoning was: if the guy I acquired the keris from photographed the wilah while he was the owner of the keris, and prior to my acquisition of it, the photos he took would be photographs of the wilah of his keris. Because the photos he took were taken before the keris became my keris, if I were to post any of the photos he took (contingent upon gaining his permission to do so first, of course), I would be posting photos of his keris (because the photos were taken by him while he was the owner of the keris, in spite of the fact that I subsequently became the owner of said keris, which remains in a condition essentially identical to that seen in his photos).
Mr Maisey has hit upon a point which is very pertinent. Messrs Anthony G and David have both hit upon that which I was primarily concerned with in my original post: the spiritual reasons.
From a strictly jurisprudential perspective, there's no issue with my posting photos of the wilah which I've taken myself. There's no issue with posting photos of the wilah taken by a third party if that third party has granted me permission to do so.
But we're discussing keris here, not a 1958 Plymouth Fury. For myself, some particular firearms, cutting or stabbing weapons, edged tools, and keris are not just commodities; some particular ones are akin to relics. A keris may not be considered a "person", (nor a valid representative, proxy, second, or 副) by any currently recognized legal system, but this does not mean that a "personage" is not inhabiting/ indwelling/ attached to/ associated with a particular article, such as a keris, and it does not mean that that such a personage is not "familiar" (in it's many nuances of meaning) with the person who currently holds the title deed to said keris, as well as those who have done so previously.
Just because times have changed, it doesn't mean that the way things were done years ago isn't the way things ought to be done now, and it doesn't mean that what was believed years ago ought not to be believed still.
Mr. Maisey: Less than a handful of people where I work know that I collect "Indonesian weapons" (for lack of a more precise and less political term). I've told most of them that my collection is housed in a certain heated storage facility miles from my residence. There is no truth whatsoever to the tale I've told them; it's a deliberate "red herring". I told that lie to lessen the likelihood that anyone they then go on to share that information with will then burglarize my residence in an effort to steal my antiques. Seekor anjing besar, kucing hitam semi-liar, dan dua bintara (pembunuh terlatih pemerintah, tanpa merentangkan kebenaran; satu suka, dan yang lainnya hanya berdarah dingin dan berpikiran bisnis) biasanya hadir di kediaman, untuk meningkatkan ketenangan pikiran saya.
I've read (and what I've read may not be true) that it's not unheard of to substitute a ganja tanpa pamor
to hide/disguise the pamor of the wilah proper, or to use kinatah emas on the original ganja to the same effect.
Again, this post may not have attained the degree of precision I would have liked, but at 04:17, it's the best I'm willing to attempt before I get some sleep.
With my respect,
Mickey

Green · 25th May 2020, 12:30 PM

Interesting topic regarding whether one should or shouldn't show photos of their keris. Coming from keris bearing culture myself (Kelantan , Malaysia) and having been interacting with many keris collectors , makers and sellers in Malaysia, Southern Thailand and Indonesia for several years now all I can say is there is neither right or wrong either way. I've met people like Mr Alan Maisey and also many other serious collectors that are more than happy to display their collections in exhibitions and photographs taken by everybody.

And there is nothing about esotoric or mystical aspects that keris should not be photographed and be seen by non owners, at least as far as in the Muslim area of keris culture (All except Bali).

A. G. Maisey · 25th May 2020, 01:35 PM

Well Green, it is a different world now to the one I learnt in, and the men who taught me learnt in a different world again.

In my experience the collectors and keris authorities of today have very different standards to ones that I was taught were correct and respectful. The study and understanding of the keris at the present time bears only a passing similarity to what it was in Central Jawa 50 or 60 years ago.

But still, you are right about this:- whether or not one observes the common courtesies of a time now past is totally up to the person concerned, there is more than one way to understand the keris, and the understandings of yesterday do indeed bear very little resemblance to the the understandings of today. The path one wishes to follow is entirely one's own choice.

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24th May 2020, 12:17 PM	#2
Mickey the Finn Member Join Date: Dec 2017 Posts: 90	My thanks to those who have provided feedback. After I'd submitted my post, it occurred to me that my question regarding the posting of photos was actually a sort of "fishing for a loophole". My reasoning was: if the guy I acquired the keris from photographed the wilah while he was the owner of the keris, and prior to my acquisition of it, the photos he took would be photographs of the wilah of his keris. Because the photos he took were taken before the keris became my keris, if I were to post any of the photos he took (contingent upon gaining his permission to do so first, of course), I would be posting photos of his keris (because the photos were taken by him while he was the owner of the keris, in spite of the fact that I subsequently became the owner of said keris, which remains in a condition essentially identical to that seen in his photos). Mr Maisey has hit upon a point which is very pertinent. Messrs Anthony G and David have both hit upon that which I was primarily concerned with in my original post: the spiritual reasons. From a strictly jurisprudential perspective, there's no issue with my posting photos of the wilah which I've taken myself. There's no issue with posting photos of the wilah taken by a third party if that third party has granted me permission to do so. But we're discussing keris here, not a 1958 Plymouth Fury. For myself, some particular firearms, cutting or stabbing weapons, edged tools, and keris are not just commodities; some particular ones are akin to relics. A keris may not be considered a "person", (nor a valid representative, proxy, second, or 副) by any currently recognized legal system, but this does not mean that a "personage" is not inhabiting/ indwelling/ attached to/ associated with a particular article, such as a keris, and it does not mean that that such a personage is not "familiar" (in it's many nuances of meaning) with the person who currently holds the title deed to said keris, as well as those who have done so previously. Just because times have changed, it doesn't mean that the way things were done years ago isn't the way things ought to be done now, and it doesn't mean that what was believed years ago ought not to be believed still. Mr. Maisey: Less than a handful of people where I work know that I collect "Indonesian weapons" (for lack of a more precise and less political term). I've told most of them that my collection is housed in a certain heated storage facility miles from my residence. There is no truth whatsoever to the tale I've told them; it's a deliberate "red herring". I told that lie to lessen the likelihood that anyone they then go on to share that information with will then burglarize my residence in an effort to steal my antiques. Seekor anjing besar, kucing hitam semi-liar, dan dua bintara (pembunuh terlatih pemerintah, tanpa merentangkan kebenaran; satu suka, dan yang lainnya hanya berdarah dingin dan berpikiran bisnis) biasanya hadir di kediaman, untuk meningkatkan ketenangan pikiran saya. I've read (and what I've read may not be true) that it's not unheard of to substitute a ganja tanpa pamor to hide/disguise the pamor of the wilah proper, or to use kinatah emas on the original ganja to the same effect. Again, this post may not have attained the degree of precision I would have liked, but at 04:17, it's the best I'm willing to attempt before I get some sleep. With my respect, Mickey

25th May 2020, 12:30 PM	#3
Green Member Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Malaysia Posts: 328	Interesting topic regarding whether one should or shouldn't show photos of their keris. Coming from keris bearing culture myself (Kelantan , Malaysia) and having been interacting with many keris collectors , makers and sellers in Malaysia, Southern Thailand and Indonesia for several years now all I can say is there is neither right or wrong either way. I've met people like Mr Alan Maisey and also many other serious collectors that are more than happy to display their collections in exhibitions and photographs taken by everybody. And there is nothing about esotoric or mystical aspects that keris should not be photographed and be seen by non owners, at least as far as in the Muslim area of keris culture (All except Bali).

25th May 2020, 01:35 PM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,228	Well Green, it is a different world now to the one I learnt in, and the men who taught me learnt in a different world again. In my experience the collectors and keris authorities of today have very different standards to ones that I was taught were correct and respectful. The study and understanding of the keris at the present time bears only a passing similarity to what it was in Central Jawa 50 or 60 years ago. But still, you are right about this:- whether or not one observes the common courtesies of a time now past is totally up to the person concerned, there is more than one way to understand the keris, and the understandings of yesterday do indeed bear very little resemblance to the the understandings of today. The path one wishes to follow is entirely one's own choice.