"Balinese Keris" book

[A. G. Maisey]

OK David, you want more than I intended to give?

If a journalist is given information long before it becomes publicly available, and his informant is somebody who is in a privileged position in respect of the information itself and the people it involves, and his informant has told him that the information is off the record, tell me, what does that journalist do?

Most especially what does he do if he wants to obtain information in future from his informant? Sometimes the information might never become publicly available, sometimes it might become available long after it is of any interest to anybody, but the rule is the same:- if one is given privileged information one keeps one's mouth shut.

Sometimes we are in possession of knowledge that it unwise to give to others, and would undermine our integrity if we did . In respect of the book under discussion, I do not have a copy of this book, but I have seen and read the material that is contained in this book.

As to my remark about purchasing "every other book that they can get their hands on", that remark contains a qualification that very adequately takes care of the money problem that we all face at some level or another. If one is a little short of funds then clearly one is unable to get their hands on a lot of things.

Going back a long time, the only way I could get my hands on Raffles' "History of Java" was to do a 50 kilometer round trip to the State Library in Sydney, and then spend the afternoon reading and making notes. I needed a copy of that book more than a mongrel dog needs a hiding, but only originals were available from antique booksellers and they were simply beyond my means.

I do understand what you have said David, and in fact the core of my post #10 is in the last line of that post.

In my experience the way in which to build knowledge is first & foremost to identify exactly what it is that one wishes to know or to learn, and that identification of "knowledge needed" then becomes one's guide to where and how to seek that knowledge. In respect of knowledge concerning keris, and in particular Balinese keris, very seldom does the material presented in print that focuses upon keris assist the understanding of a true student of the keris.

But on the other hand, if one is not so much a student of the keris, but rather a collector of the keris, then the nature of the knowledge needed is different, and knowledge at this "collector level" can be added to by virtually everything in print.

I will leave it to other people to comment on Mr. Kam's book, since I do not actually own a copy of the publication, I will not.

[Battara]

I understand and appreciate your position, Alan, thank you.

Like you, I have been in this type of situation many times (not including my career as a chaplain).

[Interested Party]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

OK David, you want more than I intended to give?



In my experience the way in which to build knowledge is first & foremost to identify exactly what it is that one wishes to know or to learn, and that identification of "knowledge needed" then becomes one's guide to where and how to seek that knowledge. In respect of knowledge concerning keris, and in particular Balinese keris, very seldom does the material presented in print that focuses upon keris assist the understanding of a true student of the keris.

But on the other hand, if one is not so much a student of the keris, but rather a collector of the keris, then the nature of the knowledge needed is different, and knowledge at this "collector level" can be added to by virtually everything in print.

Please forgive me if it is bad manners to ask. What would be a good reading list for a student of the keris (Balinaese and Javanese as well)? I have been finding the whole subject fascinating. Covid has limited my purchasing power but has given me the gift of time which I am trying to put to judicious use. I never realized I still had so many dreams.

[A. G. Maisey]

I have included a bibliography at the end of my "Interpretation ---" article that will most certainly give you an education, but it will give a person who only wishes to collect, much more than he needs, or wants, to know.

http://www.kerisattosanaji.com/INTERPRETATIONPAGE1.html

If you could give an indication of what you want to gain from any reading, perhaps specific recommendations could be made.

[Interested Party]

Thank you!!!! I have been skimming your article and bibliography (looking on line for availability as I go, I would read Groneman next if he wasn't so expensive). I am looking forward to having the time to thoroughly absorb the information you have presented this evening. For me constructing a reading list is simple. I am looking for values (I watch what things seem to sell for on the internet and add a grain of salt), estimation of age, trying to understand construction methods, why certain motifs were used and the significance of these motifs, how all this is tied into the culture (and of course learning to differentiate the peoples who made and used the keris and said peoples relative values and beliefs). Not to overlook how they were used in the martial aspect that was the keris' reason for being. As an example I enjoyed all aspects of Ghiringhelli's "Keris hilts" but it seemed topical and I wanted to dive deeper into the subject. The above list is in not in order of importance. I think I am a bit entranced by the mixture of art, culture, and martial application. Oh and one last thing I am a sucker for classification systems, so the right word for the right object has always been a pet peav of mine. I have one major handicap in this endeavor of not being a successful polyglot. I can only read English and, occasionally these days, Spanish. Simple, right? Thanks again to you A.G. and all the other members of the forum for the help in broadening my horizons!

[A. G. Maisey]

Here are my initial thoughts:-

Estimate value:- ie, what is a fair price for a keris?

Estimate age:- ie, when was the blade made, when were other components made ?

Construction:- ie, how was the blade made, how were other components made?

Reasons for motifs:- ie, cultural and societal significance of design & ornamental motifs used in the keris?

As a cultural icon:- probably links back to motifs, both can probably be considered together

Societal differentiation & background:- this involves anthropological & sociological study

Use as a weapon:- this covers a very broad field and involves a lot of opinion & very little fact, Don Draeger might be the place to start, but the enquiry should really be narrowed down to precisely what is being sought

Classification:- if classification for a collector based in the modern world outside S.E. Asia, Jean Greffioz' recent book is hard to go past. If classification in a different sense, tighter specification is needed.

Only texts in English

If my understanding of your needs is incorrect in any way, or needs to be expanded, please amend my rough outline above.

When we can nail down exactly what you need I can probably make some recommendations, and I believe other of our regular contributors could probably add to what I might recommend.

[Interested Party]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Here are my initial thoughts:-

Estimate value:- ie, what is a fair price for a keris?
-Yes, but not the focus of this forum. My family were old fashioned traders. Value is a compulsive habit and understood to be realativistic.

Estimate age:- ie, when was the blade made, when were other components made ?
-Yes and yes.

Construction:- ie, how was the blade made, how were other components made?
-Yes and yes.

Reasons for motifs:- ie, cultural and societal significance of design & ornamental motifs used in the keris?
-Yes. The mixture of art, ascetics and narrative the artist wanted to show, and purpose both ergonomics and supernatural appeal. I saw a book on Hindu iconography you listed and I have been wanting to read Elgood's book on Hindu ritual.

As a cultural icon:- probably links back to motifs, both can probably be considered together

Societal differentiation & background:- this involves anthropological & sociological study.
-Yes it will. Lots.

Use as a weapon:- this covers a very broad field and involves a lot of opinion & very little fact, Don Draeger might be the place to start, but the enquiry should really be narrowed down to precisely what is being sought
-IDK martial arts are a very nebulous subject for me. I'm not sure I will ever have much of a grip on it.

Classification:- if classification for a collector based in the modern world outside S.E. Asia, Jean Greffioz' recent book is hard to go past. If classification in a different sense, tighter specification is needed.
-What do you use as your basis for classification or do you use several systems in parallel?

Only texts in English
-I can read Spanish at a slower pace.

If my understanding of your needs is incorrect in any way, or needs to be expanded, please amend my rough outline above.

When we can nail down exactly what you need I can probably make some recommendations, and I believe other of our regular contributors could probably add to what I might recommend.

Noted. This is a bit of a long term project. WOW I really appreciate this and hope others are getting something out of it as well! I've been combing the forum for books for months.

[A. G. Maisey]

With apologies, I've taken this out of the quote frame to make it easier to work with.


Estimated value:-

A.G.--- ie, what is a fair price for a keris?

IP --- Yes, but not the focus of this forum. My family were old fashioned traders. Value is a compulsive habit and understood to be realativistic.

A.G. -- Yeah, we don't talk about actual examples of what things are worth, our focus is, I believe, mostly the classification & cultural area of enquiry. However, I do not believe that there is any restriction on discussing how an estimated value is arrived at.

This is pretty much tied up with perspective.

The value of anything is determined by what a willing buyer will pay and what a willing seller will accept.
This depends upon market forces and the personalities involved. But there are valuers in all fields who will give an expert opinion on what something is worth on the current market, these people usually charge a fee that is validated by their personal experience, and that experience can take several lifetimes to gain.

For a collector of anything, as distinct from a dealer, that collector's only protection is hard won experience and dealing with an honest seller who has a reputation that he cannot afford to lose.

I would most gently suggest that ebay and unknown internet sellers are perhaps not the best place to begin one's learning experience.


Estimate age:-

A.G. --- ie, when was the blade made, when were other components made ?

IP --- Yes and yes.

A. G. --- insofar as the blade is concerned this is to a very large degree a matter of hands on experience, you cannot learn much about it from anything that is in print, you need a very good face to face teacher and access to a lot of keris blades, even then it can be close to impossible to arrive at a reliable estimate.
With the other components it is a matter of being able to judge things like method of manufacture and patina and whether or not the object in question has been fiddled with. Again, books will not help.


Construction:-

A. G. --- ie, how was the blade made, how were other components made?

IP --- Yes and yes.

A. G. --- the technology of keris blade construction is pretty simple, it is basically straight-forward blade smithing, but with archaic technology. Re-prints of old blacksmithing text books, modern knife maker's texts (Jim Hrisoulas). You can learn the theory from books, learning the practice is a bit more difficult.
Hilts & scabbards are just carving --- wood, horn, bone, etc--- where metal is involved it involves fabrication and chasing, either hand engraving or embossing, repoussé has been used but it is rare. Plenty of books around that deal with these skills.

Reasons for motifs:-

A. G. --- ie, cultural and societal significance of design & ornamental motifs used in the keris?

IP --- Yes. The mixture of art, ascetics and narrative the artist wanted to show, and purpose both ergonomics and supernatural appeal. I saw a book on Hindu iconography you listed and I have been wanting to read Elgood's book on Hindu ritual.

A. G. --- This is not really something that can reduced to print on a page. The same thing can have different meanings in different places & times and for different people. I personally believe that it is not really possible to come to even a partial understanding of the motifs involved in Javanese & Balinese society & culture unless one is embedded in one of relevant societies, and even then, it is necessary to seek guidance from the (now) very few people who might have an understanding of these things. Much of the knowledge has been lost. Very wide and continuous study in this field can assist, but it is certain that an enormous amount of knowledge just does not exist any longer.
Having said that, there is a fair bit of comment on various motifs scattered through a lot of books, but how much is truly accurate, and in what context, is open to question. If English is the only language available, then I don't think there is anything in print in English that I could recommend.

As a cultural icon:-

A. G. --- probably links back to motifs, both can probably be considered together

Societal differentiation & background:-

A. G. --- this involves anthropological & sociological study.

IP --- Yes it will. Lots.

A. G. --- perhaps the best place to start with this is:-

Wiener Margaret J. "Visible and Invisible Realms",
ISBN 0-226-88582-8/1,The University of Chicago Press


Use as a weapon:-

A. G. --- this covers a very broad field and involves a lot of opinion & very little fact, Don Draeger might be the place to start, but the enquiry should really be narrowed down to precisely what is being sought

IP --- IDK martial arts are a very nebulous subject for me. I'm not sure I will ever have much of a grip on it.

A.G. --- the modern interpretations of keris related martial arts are a field unto themselves, the use of the keris as a weapon to kill or wound in both modern and ancient times bears very little relationship to the use of the keris in modern martial arts. How it was used in times past can only be guessed at, but ancient literary works and historical texts from the last couple of hundred years do give some guidance. How it was used during the era of Konfrontasi and the struggle for independence in modern Indonesia is now probably only known to those who might have been involved or who have spoken with others about their experiences. I do not know of anything in print about this.
The Javanese philosophy of the use of any weapon seems to me to owe a lot to Sun Tzu and in general to Chinese philosophies.

Classification:-

A. G. --- if classification for a collector based in the modern world outside S.E. Asia, Jean Greffioz' recent book is hard to go past. If classification in a different sense, tighter specification is needed.

IP --- What do you use as your basis for classification or do you use several systems in parallel?

A. G. --- it depends upon what I need to classify, if you can put the question to me in a specific way, I will give a specific response. This whole thing of classification is almost endless. It is pretty easy to classify some things in generally accepted terms, but then the classification needs to be understood by the person or people it is directed at:- I do not necessarily classify something in the same way for collectors in the Western World, as I would for a dealer living in Solo, Central Jawa.

[David]

Originally Posted by Interested Party

Thank you!!!! I have been skimming your article and bibliography (looking on line for availability as I go, I would read Groneman next if he wasn't so expensive).

I believe if you search the internet you will be able to find this book online.

[Interested Party]

Originally Posted by David

I believe if you search the internet you will be able to find this book online.

I've seen a few copies out there. I just need to find the right one. So far they have seemed maybe slightly over valued.


"A. G. --- perhaps the best place to start with this is: -Wiener Margaret J. "Visible and Invisible Realms", ISBN 0-226-88582-8/1,The University of Chicago Press"

--Mr Maisey, Funny you should say that I already had her on order from reading your bibliography. I really enjoyed your Interpretation. I am looking at what I see in a different way now. (the lingam/yoni symbolism, which is mirrored in Daoist beliefs. The water cycle between the mountains and valleys. Fertility. How the martial use of the blade would mirror the art, the unity of the destroyer and the creator. The cultural importance of the conflict over Chinese Kailash as well as the belief that sometimes mtns shouldn't be climbed. Lots of little pieces). Every little bit helps understand where and from what culture an object, and often its separate components, came from. Comprehending a bit of the symbolism behind the motifs or lack of motifs, has given a glimpse into possibly what it's maker was trying to say/achieve. This has enhanced my enjoyment of seeing the objects immensely. Thanks, for that. A week where I've learned this much is a good week.

A question for the group; Why is there very little mention of Gardner's "Keris and other Malay Weapon"? and none of A.H. Hill and his coauthors for their collected works? Are these not considered serious, or are they antiquated or worse yet erroneous? My apologies for being the king of the run-on sentence.

[Anthony G.]

Originally Posted by Interested Party

I've seen a few copies out there. I just need to find the right one. So far they have seemed maybe slightly over valued.


"A. G. --- perhaps the best place to start with this is: -Wiener Margaret J. "Visible and Invisible Realms", ISBN 0-226-88582-8/1,The University of Chicago Press"

--Mr Maisey, Funny you should say that I already had her on order from reading your bibliography. I really enjoyed your Interpretation. I am looking at what I see in a different way now. (the lingam/yoni symbolism, which is mirrored in Daoist beliefs. The water cycle between the mountains and valleys. Fertility. How the martial use of the blade would mirror the art, the unity of the destroyer and the creator. The cultural importance of the conflict over Chinese Kailash as well as the belief that sometimes mtns shouldn't be climbed. Lots of little pieces). Every little bit helps understand where and from what culture an object, and often its separate components, came from. Comprehending a bit of the symbolism behind the motifs or lack of motifs, has given a glimpse into possibly what it's maker was trying to say/achieve. This has enhanced my enjoyment of seeing the objects immensely. Thanks, for that. A week where I've learned this much is a good week.

A question for the group; Why is there very little mention of Gardner's "Keris and other Malay Weapon"? and none of A.H. Hill and his coauthors for their collected works? Are these not considered serious, or are they antiquated or worse yet erroneous? My apologies for being the king of the run-on sentence.

Dun waste your cash on this book, I have it. Anyway, read this review and you shall decide whether it is a right book for you or otherwise.

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/..._Malay_Weapons