I know my Pappenheims...

shayde78 · 21st March 2020, 12:37 AM

Thanks ulfberth!
The total length is 41.75"
The blade, from point to guard (excluding ricasso) is 34".
I'm also trying to make out the word on the other side of the ricasso. I think I see K E Y, or K E X, but there are more letters I can't yet decipher.

ulfberth · 21st March 2020, 09:03 AM

that means its is missing 6 to 9 inch of its length, can you take a picture of the other letters ?
The name or word is interesting but in this case it could be they were used as a quality label .
The gripwire has also been replaced by cord and it's missing one Turkish knot, still an original pappenheimer rapier an a rare find ! Considering that many of them were restored at some point in time.

fernando · 21st March 2020, 12:51 PM

Excelent inputs Dirk; good to have you around

.

shayde78 · 21st March 2020, 04:24 PM

If it is missing 6-9 inches, how badly would that effect the point of balance? I ask because it currently balance just in front of the guard. Is that where it should be? As a former competitive fencer, it seems to handle very well for such a heavy weapon. To me, that suggests decent balance.
That said, perhaps these were originally more point-heavy and the shortening if the blade inadvertently made the balance more familiar to someone like me.
Another possibility is the weight lost to the hilt by not having the second plate guard would have counter-balanced the additional weight.

All in all, thank you to all those who have shared their thoughts so far. I will keep trying to get a clear picture of the other marks ontheon the ricasso.

Stay healthy, everyone!

ulfberth · 21st March 2020, 08:49 PM

Being a diamond shape blade and fairly wide for this type it will probably have improved the balance.
The balance should serve its function, in this case in full length if it was to use from horse back it should be just slightly top heavy. Pappenheimers with slender stabbing blades are not top heavy at all , some have wide blades made for slashing , these are mostly shorter and lean more forward in balance like a sabre, you should be able to feel its function . I found this to be the case in even the most rudimental munitions grade swords or rapiers and in some cases its just amazing how agile a big sword can feel.

shayde78 · 21st March 2020, 09:22 PM

Indeed. When made by and for those who knew how to wield them, even large sword could be quite agile.
I know Pappenheim rapiers are said to have originated in 1630, a strangely specific date. I'm sure they continued to be made beyond the end of the Thirty Year War, but is there any indication when this particular example was made? I feel like I saw somewhere that the rings below the plate guards indicate an earlier style, but I've no idea where I picked up the bit of info (I could have dreamt it!).

kronckew · 21st March 2020, 09:32 PM

Whatever shortened it (a break?) the owner loved it enough to remove the left side guard plate, the least important one for a right-hander, to help restore the balance. Cool.

ulfberth · 22nd March 2020, 10:33 AM

The guard plates are kept in place by a slit as you can see in the picture above pointed by the blue arrow.
A strong blow to the guard may deform it and the guard plate will fall out, this is why so many pappenheimer and walloons type's have missing or replaced plates. The blade is most vulnerable towards the tip where its the thinnest and more prone to be damaged or brake there. That is why intact length and completely original pappenheimers or all rapiers or swords for that matter are extremely rare , about 70 % is damaged and or restored . As for the date the first half of the 17th c , I can not date it by the smaller guard ring the pappenheimers can have many different small variations, however the type of blade used here reminds me of North Italy or South Germany.
kind regards
Ulfberth

shayde78 · 23rd March 2020, 03:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ulfberth

The gripwire has also been replaced by cord and it's missing one Turkish knot, still an original pappenheimer rapier an a rare find !

So, upon taking a closer look, the grip appears to be wrapped, not in cord, but in a woven textile material that has been dipped in something like pitch(?). I'm attaching close-ups where you can clearly see the woven pattern. Is this at all typical of a period replacement?

shayde78 · 23rd March 2020, 03:29 AM

Thanks for all the good information!

I was finally able to get some photos of the markings on the reverse side of the ricasso. Still hard to make out, but I'm uploading several pictures in the hope that someone can piece together what it says.

This is proving an engaging activity while on a state-wide COVID-19 lockdown...thank you for providing some good conversation

fernando · 23rd March 2020, 12:35 PM

Can you make it KEVELAER ?
There is a German town called Kevelaer ...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kevelaer
Could the inscription be a religious dedication ?

Nonsense, of course

.

.

ulfberth · 23rd March 2020, 01:55 PM

It looks like CLEMENS KEULLER on the ricasso , spelling was phonetic in this period and most people could not write.
We also know that the letter U was mostly engraved or struck as V.
So I think there is a good chance it is on one side " clemen(s)" and on the other side "keuller" CLEMENS KEULLER . Not all sword / rapier blades have markings, so you have this as a plus. ( from European makers of edged weapons by Staffan Kinman )

fernando · 23rd March 2020, 02:36 PM

Bravo, Dirk; brilliant

.

shayde78 · 15th April 2020, 03:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shayde78

So, upon taking a closer look, the grip appears to be wrapped, not in cord, but in a woven textile material that has been dipped in something like pitch(?). I'm attaching close-ups where you can clearly see the woven pattern. Is this at all typical of a period replacement?

I hope everyone is staying safe during their COVID lockdown. The question I asked in post #16 seems to have been lost as we moved on to discuss the name on the ricasso. Any insights into this treatment of the grip? I seem to see similar grip covering on other examples from the period and would love to know what it is, and if it might have been part of this weapon's functional life.

ulfberth · 15th April 2020, 06:31 PM

thanks for the reminder and the clear close up picture.
It is hard to say if this textile is a replacement during working life.
Some gripwire's had textile underneath but these are of very fine woven textile nothing like this.

shayde78 · 16th May 2020, 11:19 PM

Thank you, ulfberth, Fernando, Mark (you were the first to ID it as legit!), and everyone else who contributed to helping me understand what is now the favorite item in my collection. An authentic, original rapier from this period has been a bucket-list acquisition for me (and one I presumed to be long out of my price range). I appreciate all of you who helped me learn more.
Hope you are all staying well!
-Rob

shayde78 · 1st April 2023, 06:14 PM

Just adding this link to a thread which discusses a similar textile covering on the grip of a khanda.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...574#post280574

Not sure if this suggests the Pappenheim may have spent some time in South Asia, or if wrapping the grip in a textile impregnated with pitch was a fairly widespread (albeit not common) practice. I know the grip on the Pappenheim was originally wrapped in wire, and this example retains a single Turks Head. Yet I remain intrigued by this surviving material.

21st March 2020, 04:24 PM	#4
shayde78 Member Join Date: Mar 2017 Posts: 445	If it is missing 6-9 inches, how badly would that effect the point of balance? I ask because it currently balance just in front of the guard. Is that where it should be? As a former competitive fencer, it seems to handle very well for such a heavy weapon. To me, that suggests decent balance. That said, perhaps these were originally more point-heavy and the shortening if the blade inadvertently made the balance more familiar to someone like me. Another possibility is the weight lost to the hilt by not having the second plate guard would have counter-balanced the additional weight. All in all, thank you to all those who have shared their thoughts so far. I will keep trying to get a clear picture of the other marks ontheon the ricasso. Stay healthy, everyone! Last edited by shayde78; 21st March 2020 at 05:02 PM.

23rd March 2020, 03:29 AM	#10
shayde78 Member Join Date: Mar 2017 Posts: 445	Thanks for all the good information! I was finally able to get some photos of the markings on the reverse side of the ricasso. Still hard to make out, but I'm uploading several pictures in the hope that someone can piece together what it says. This is proving an engaging activity while on a state-wide COVID-19 lockdown...thank you for providing some good conversation Attached Images

23rd March 2020, 12:35 PM	#11
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Can you make it KEVELAER ? There is a German town called Kevelaer ... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kevelaer Could the inscription be a religious dedication ? Nonsense, of course . . Last edited by fernando; 23rd March 2020 at 01:07 PM.

23rd March 2020, 01:55 PM	#12
ulfberth Member Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 428	It looks like CLEMENS KEULLER on the ricasso , spelling was phonetic in this period and most people could not write. We also know that the letter U was mostly engraved or struck as V. So I think there is a good chance it is on one side " clemen(s)" and on the other side "keuller" CLEMENS KEULLER . Not all sword / rapier blades have markings, so you have this as a plus. ( from European makers of edged weapons by Staffan Kinman ) Attached Images

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21st March 2020, 12:37 AM	#1
shayde78 Member Join Date: Mar 2017 Posts: 445	Thanks ulfberth! The total length is 41.75" The blade, from point to guard (excluding ricasso) is 34". I'm also trying to make out the word on the other side of the ricasso. I think I see K E Y, or K E X, but there are more letters I can't yet decipher. Last edited by shayde78; 21st March 2020 at 03:11 AM.

21st March 2020, 09:03 AM	#2
ulfberth Member Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 428	that means its is missing 6 to 9 inch of its length, can you take a picture of the other letters ? The name or word is interesting but in this case it could be they were used as a quality label . The gripwire has also been replaced by cord and it's missing one Turkish knot, still an original pappenheimer rapier an a rare find ! Considering that many of them were restored at some point in time.

21st March 2020, 12:51 PM	#3
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Excelent inputs Dirk; good to have you around .

21st March 2020, 08:49 PM	#5
ulfberth Member Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 428	Being a diamond shape blade and fairly wide for this type it will probably have improved the balance. The balance should serve its function, in this case in full length if it was to use from horse back it should be just slightly top heavy. Pappenheimers with slender stabbing blades are not top heavy at all , some have wide blades made for slashing , these are mostly shorter and lean more forward in balance like a sabre, you should be able to feel its function . I found this to be the case in even the most rudimental munitions grade swords or rapiers and in some cases its just amazing how agile a big sword can feel.

21st March 2020, 09:22 PM	#6
shayde78 Member Join Date: Mar 2017 Posts: 445	Indeed. When made by and for those who knew how to wield them, even large sword could be quite agile. I know Pappenheim rapiers are said to have originated in 1630, a strangely specific date. I'm sure they continued to be made beyond the end of the Thirty Year War, but is there any indication when this particular example was made? I feel like I saw somewhere that the rings below the plate guards indicate an earlier style, but I've no idea where I picked up the bit of info (I could have dreamt it!).

21st March 2020, 09:32 PM	#7
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,227	Whatever shortened it (a break?) the owner loved it enough to remove the left side guard plate, the least important one for a right-hander, to help restore the balance. Cool.

22nd March 2020, 10:33 AM	#8
ulfberth Member Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 428	The guard plates are kept in place by a slit as you can see in the picture above pointed by the blue arrow. A strong blow to the guard may deform it and the guard plate will fall out, this is why so many pappenheimer and walloons type's have missing or replaced plates. The blade is most vulnerable towards the tip where its the thinnest and more prone to be damaged or brake there. That is why intact length and completely original pappenheimers or all rapiers or swords for that matter are extremely rare , about 70 % is damaged and or restored . As for the date the first half of the 17th c , I can not date it by the smaller guard ring the pappenheimers can have many different small variations, however the type of blade used here reminds me of North Italy or South Germany. kind regards Ulfberth

23rd March 2020, 02:36 PM	#13
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Bravo, Dirk; brilliant .

15th April 2020, 06:31 PM	#15
ulfberth Member Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 428	thanks for the reminder and the clear close up picture. It is hard to say if this textile is a replacement during working life. Some gripwire's had textile underneath but these are of very fine woven textile nothing like this.

16th May 2020, 11:19 PM	#16
shayde78 Member Join Date: Mar 2017 Posts: 445	Thank you, ulfberth, Fernando, Mark (you were the first to ID it as legit!), and everyone else who contributed to helping me understand what is now the favorite item in my collection. An authentic, original rapier from this period has been a bucket-list acquisition for me (and one I presumed to be long out of my price range). I appreciate all of you who helped me learn more. Hope you are all staying well! -Rob

1st April 2023, 06:14 PM	#17
shayde78 Member Join Date: Mar 2017 Posts: 445	Just adding this link to a thread which discusses a similar textile covering on the grip of a khanda. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...574#post280574 Not sure if this suggests the Pappenheim may have spent some time in South Asia, or if wrapping the grip in a textile impregnated with pitch was a fairly widespread (albeit not common) practice. I know the grip on the Pappenheim was originally wrapped in wire, and this example retains a single Turks Head. Yet I remain intrigued by this surviving material.