New Rock Crystal Pesh-kabz

[mahratt]

Congratulations.

Great dagger. I was offered this dagger a few years ago.
But at that time already I was exclusively collecting arms and armor of Afghanistan.

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

Classic Indian wootz blade, probably early 19 century, with more recent (probably around 1900) hilt.

Most daggers with one piece rock hilts are not suitable for combat use as the joint between the hilt and the blade cannot withstand strong shocks, and the hilts themselves are prone to cracking. They became popular around 1900 when daggers gained more of a decorative/status role.

I agree with Marius.

[ariel]

I had to go back and forth to figure out which one is which:-((
Do both of them have chamfered edges? Those were often seen on Afghani pesh kabzes , including Mahsud ch’huras. Blades of that nature were produced en masse and hilted and rehilted repeatedly with whatever handle happened to be available for irrespective of their age and origin.

Just looking at the pics, I am not sure whether wootz on the smaller one is modern. Wootz patterns varied enormously and while a classy Kara-taban is highly likely to be old and Persian, the indistinct and undistinguished ones could have been made any time and anywhere. Attaching a handle is the easiest part.

Single piece rock crystal handles had an unsolvable problem: they were designed for beauty, but strong, large, crudely patinated tangs ruined the image. They had to make their tangs short and skinny ( mouse tail), with all the mechanical problems of Indonesian Kris, only worse. I fully agree with Marius: those were status symbols devoid of any practical value short of spearing a strawberry.

I would be very cautious relying on al Sabah book: they apparently had an agenda to date and attribute their collection items according to the wishes of the owner.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Here is one of my crystal hilts. Not with a Pesh Kabz blade - but still a nice hilt.
In one of his books Robert Elgood mentions that Belgien exported glass hilts to India.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Here is a Pesh Kabz, but without a crystal hilt.
The strange thing is, that I have had it for decades, and never seen this kind of decoration on other weapons. Some time ago I saw a picture on the net of a shamshir with a hilt with a lions head, and decorated in the same way.

[mariusgmioc]

My crystal hilted...

[vilhelmsson]

TVV, Thank you for the images! The bare hilt on page 265 is interesting and bears a close resemblance to a hilt in the Victoria & Albert Museum: http://collections.vam.ac.uk/item/O450640/dagger-hilt/.

While acknowledging Ariel's comments regarding a potential Al-Sabah agency dilemma, the very similar hilt in the VAM was acquired at some point between 1829 and 1867, and dated to the early 19th century. Likewise, The Met crystal dagger was acquired at sometime prior to 1927, and they date it to the 18th or 19th century.

According to my brief internet research, the first Belgian exports of pressed glass to India commenced in 1839 by Val Saint Lambert (https://www.academia.edu/37691529/Be...e_19th_Century). The author discusses other pressed glass products, including lamp covers, exported from Europe to India, but does not specifically mention glass hilts. And Elgood's comment re glass hilts coming from Belgium relies on a citation that lamps in certain Indian temples were imported from Europe. An even briefer search for 19th century Val Saint Lambert glass hilts does not turn up anything useful. But I'm not sure that any of this is dispositive of anything with regards to the hilt of my dagger or the hilts in VAM, The Met, or Al-Sabah.

I took a half-hearted swipe at the hilt with a piece of a quartz and it only left a superficial scratch that rubbed off at the touch of my thumb--unlike the permanent gouge the quartz put in the drinking glass at my desk. When I get the chance, I need to take it to a jeweler to test the conductivity.

Most daggers with one piece rock hilts are not suitable for combat use as the joint between the hilt and the blade cannot withstand strong shocks, and the hilts themselves are prone to cracking. They became popular around 1900 when daggers gained more of a decorative/status role.

In regards to the above analysis concluding that rock hilts did not become popular until around 1900, I would question this. Hadn't daggers served a largely decorative/status and ceremonial roll at, in particular, northern courts since at least the early 17th century, for example, the Jahangir dagger in Elgood's Rajput Arms & Armour? How much more robust are jade or walrus ivory hilted daggers than a crystal-hilted dagger, with or without a tang? And crystal was quite the fashion in Mughal courts. There is at least one rock crystal hilt in a museum, the VAM example, that can be highly likely dated to at least as early as the mid-19th century. And that particular shape is somewhat common as seen in Jens's dagger above and in The Met example, which suggests that crystal (rock- or glass) was a popular hilt material well prior to 1900.

For me, the attraction of Indian arms is not in their raw marshal utility, but in their beauty. But if marshal utility is your thing, the nicks in the blade of my pesh kabz indicate that a child likely fought some imaginary battles with this dagger!

Just looking at the pics, I am not sure whether wootz on the smaller one is modern. Wootz patterns varied enormously and while a classy Kara-taban is highly likely to be old and Persian, the indistinct and undistinguished ones could have been made any time and anywhere.

Regarding the above comment, acknowledged regarding a lesser wootz pattern potentially being of any age, but in this case the wootz pattern on the smaller blade is irrelevant. The steel itself is, without doubt, a very modern stainless steel alloy.

Mahratt, Thank you for the photo. That must be pre-Oct 2015?

Jens, Both of those daggers are beautiful. Your hilt looks like a nice lattice of SiO2, but do you know or have an opinion on whether it's quartz or glass?

[mariusgmioc]

Originally Posted by vilhelmsson

In regards to the above analysis concluding that rock hilts did not become popular until around 1900, I would question this. Hadn't daggers served a largely decorative/status and ceremonial roll at, in particular, northern courts since at least the early 17th century, for example, the Jahangir dagger in Elgood's Rajput Arms & Armour? How much more robust are jade or walrus ivory hilted daggers than a crystal-hilted dagger, with or without a tang? And crystal was quite the fashion in Mughal courts. There is at least one rock crystal hilt in a museum, the VAM example, that can be highly likely dated to at least as early as the mid-19th century. And that particular shape is somewhat common as seen in Jens's dagger above and in The Met example, which suggests that crystal (rock- or glass) was a popular hilt material well prior to 1900.

Right... single-pieced rock hilts existed well before 1900 but from around 1900 they became much, much more prevalent... in other words, they became popular. And this is most likely because they became fashionable collector's items for the European... well, mostly English market.
So yes, you may find a crystal/rock-hilted dagger from the early 19th century here and there... but their vast majority are from around 1900 and later.

Originally Posted by vilhelmsson

But if marshal utility is your thing, the nicks in the blade of my pesh kabz indicate that a child likely fought some imaginary battles with this dagger!

Precisely!
A child could have made the nicks in the blade...
... but more likely it was rust.
The edge is the thinnest part of the blade and when it rusts, it can go all the way through. So where on a flat surface of the blade rust would leave a pit, on the edge would leave a nick.
The nicks, may also come from real combat use as the blade may have formerly been mounted in a more combat-ready hilt. However, this is highly unlikely because these daggers were used for stabbing not for slashing and the most likely damage may have been a broken or bent tip, not a damaged edge. Even when piercing chainmail, the edge may become more blunt but not nicked.

Originally Posted by vilhelmsson

Regarding the above comment, acknowledged regarding a lesser wootz pattern potentially being of any age, but in this case the wootz pattern on the smaller blade is irrelevant. The steel itself is, without doubt, a very modern stainless steel alloy.

Modern, maybe, but definitely not stainless steel! Most likely modern wootz, as wootz is produced these days as well. Some comes closer to the antique, some not, but all the rest is there.

and lastly...

Originally Posted by vilhelmsson

When I get the chance, I need to take it to a jeweler to test the conductivity.

Better yet... you buy from Amazon a gem tester for 15 Euro more or less and test it yourself. Quartz is more conductive than glass, pretty much like Amethist or Citrine.
Quartz scratches quartz, like diamond scratches diamond.

[mahratt]

Originally Posted by vilhelmsson

Mahratt, Thank you for the photo. That must be pre-Oct 2015?

2012

[ariel]

Jens,

For all practical purposes the last one looks like Afghani ch’hura ( blade) with Indian handle. Nothing surprising: there had never been a sharp impenetrable border between the two areas. A lot of Makhsud lived ( and still live) in Pakhtunhwa province of what is now Pakistan ( formerly part of Raj India).
Such borderline areas are spread all over the World: Central Asian Khanates and Afghanistan, Greeks in Ottoman Anatolia and Bulgarian Turks, Oman/ Baluchistan etc. That’s why attributing ethnic/ cultural objects of 18-19 century to current national borders makes no particular sense.