ANTIQUE 16th C OLD MADURA KERIS ??????

[nechesh]

Originally Posted by doecon

Thanks for your advice, looking forward meeting some expertise, might even learn something along the way.

I do however think you misunderstood the aim of my answer. I’m not defending anything, but I do think its important to show additional material so everybody can make up his own mind.

About the dress thing, yes of course we all understand people don’t throw their Ivory or golden dresses (they sell them). As I mentioned its quite common (here) to change an old dress for a new one, to illustrate that most blades around, don’t come with their “original” sheath. You should have a look in Java, you’ll be surprised to see a good amount of small businesses creating new sheaths, handles and pendok. Mostly for the local market. It’s a cultural thing. We (westerners) see the half rotten sheath as a valuable antique, here (java) they mostly don’t.

Regarding the possibility of keris being fake, I do have some things to say. It takes a lot of prejudice to assume that a (any) 15th, 16th , 17th year old keris is beforehand, probably a fake. Especially when it concerns a “common” keris. Fact is that there is still plenty (luckily) of old blades available in Indonesia. It simply doesn’t make sense to “copy” or fake a 16th century blade, when there is enough supply of the original. Or when the model copied is not in high demand.

I do however get worried myself about the continuous number of sellers claiming centuries of ages for obvious new blades. To me this doesn’t make sense. A good old keris is a good old one, a good new keris is a good new one…

Doecon, just to be clear, i was not assuming that this keris was a fake. I merely stated that the pics weren't very good and that the pitting looked suspicious to me. After further consideration and talk with other forumites i have come more to the conclusion that the pitting is just due to mistreatment over the years.
You are certainly right to say that " A good old keris is a good old one, a good new keris is a good new one…", however, i would definitely argue if you were to state that there are plenty of "good" old blades still available in Jawa. So of course it makes sense to copy 16thC blades if you make high quality ones. The blade in question is certainly not a high quality keris at all. You can probably find blades like this pretty cheap in Jawa.
As to dress, i firstly wouldn't make any assumption abot what "we (westerners) value. Many of us here understand the "cultural thing" and keep our collections accordingly. If i recieve a keris with damaged parts i replace them. If the blade needs a re-etching and staining, i do it , as do others on this forum. And it is not just ivory and gold dress which is highly valued and appreciated in Indonesia, but many types of highly prized woods. High levels of carving are also to be prized and appreciated. So, of course, anyone with a cultural understanding would not allow their keris to remain in a half rotten sheath. But in Indonesia don't just automatically change out a perfectly good sheath when they recieve an old keris, which is what you implied when you wrote:
"Most of the "new" owners simply want to change the "clothes" of their old blade. Put on a brand new sheath with shiny new brass cover is still seen as a good thing. You also dont wear the same clothes all the time, right ? The old ones sometimes is simply thrown away (trust me I see it happen a lot)."
But this is not the same as replacing an old worn out dress. I would not, however, be at all surprised at the number of small mranggi businesses in Jawa making new dress for old blades.