Indian Katar ,tourist maybe ?

[ariel]

Per Elgood, katars in the 19th century were made in quantities, but for tourist/ souvenir purposes only. The era of face-to-face battles was over......
Everybody got a proverbial Maxim gun.

[mahratt]

chiefheadknocker, I think no one can say for sure whether your katar was made before 1857 (then it could be used for battle), or it was made in the late 19th century as an item for tourists.

[Kubur]

Originally Posted by mahratt

chiefheadknocker, I think no one can say for sure whether your katar was made before 1857 (then it could be used for battle), or it was made in the late 19th century as an item for tourists.

Not only that
but if you remove all the weapons not used in battle, and classify them in tourist items then you will have to remove 70% if not more of the weapons from ethno forum...

[ariel]

Kubur,
You are partially correct: the role of bladed weapons shrank markedly with the introduction of firearms.
But short-bladed weapons suffered the biggest blow. Swords/ sabers were still used on the battlefield for a long while, although more and more as rank weapons. But Cossack cavalry units were still active as recently as WW2.

Military tactics shifted from close quarter melee to artillery bombardment. Perhaps, the only regulation short-bladed weapon left in international arsenals were bayonets. Of the ethnic “knives” the only truly survived one that comes to mind is Kukri. The more primitive societies kept them longer, the ones striving to modernity got rid of them earlier. Thus, to put a defined date of the “Judgement Day” for short-bladed weapons ( 1857? 1865? etc)is naive to put it mildly, but 19- early 20 century is a a good approximation if we speak of the world-wide military history.

Katar was a quintessential melee weapon, and in Greater India it likely went the way of Dodo together with bichwa, khanjarli and Bagh-nakh. All of them continued their existence as exotic souvenirs often marked and sold as antiques.

And you are likely correct: by the end of the 19 century more than 90% of the weapons we are discussing here ceased to exist as battlefield implements. They were so rare and unneeded for regular use, that the most widely used “weapon” during WWI trench melees was... a shovel.

[mahratt]

I am surprised that some forum participants are not aware of the events that took place in India in 1857 - 1859. Those events after which the colonial authorities in India began to prohibit the carrying and storage of weapons by Hindus. So the years 1857-1859 in India can be considered the conditional border of the termination of the use of edged weapons by the local population.

[ariel]

I am absolutely certain that every participant on this Forum is very well aware of the Sepoy Rebellion, aka Great Mutiny, or India’s First War of Independence:-)


But it had nothing to do with the demise of Katar as a weapon. On the contrary, if anything, the post-war British-inspired revitalization of local production of the old-style weapons by the workshops in the princely states delayed its disappearance. The author of the previous comment is well advised to consult books on the Marlborough House and Sandringham collections. A great number of weapons gifted by the Rajahs to the Prince of Wales in 1875-6 were newly made. Also, textual parts of Elgood’s books on Jaipur and Jodhpur Arsenals may be extremely informative. I would strongly advise careful reading of those sources before making rash and naive statements that on top of everything else have no relation to the topic of this discussion.

Bladed weapons, like most other traditions, do not appear or disappear overnight or as a result of a single incident; it is always a gradual but inexorable process. The book by Kirill Rivkin on the evolution of saber analyzes it in great detail and needs to be studied carefully.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Thank you for showing the details.
If it is from Bundi, two fish at the hilt base would make sence, as they, the former rulers of Delhi, were Hindu's, belonging to the Hara subclan of the Chauhans.


Thank you Ariel for 'pushing' the discussion back on trail:-).

[mahratt]

Originally Posted by ariel

But it had nothing to do with the demise of Katar as a weapon. On the contrary, if anything, the post-war British-inspired revitalization of local production of the old-style weapons by the workshops in the princely states delayed its disappearance. The author of the previous comment is well advised to consult books on the Marlborough House and Sandringham collections. A great number of weapons gifted by the Rajahs to the Prince of Wales in 1875-6 were newly made. Also, textual parts of Elgood’s books on Jaipur and Jodhpur Arsenals may be extremely informative. I would strongly advise careful reading of those sources before making rash and naive statements that on top of everything else have no relation to the topic of this discussion.

I wonder how the weapons made for the Prince of Wales and other "collectors" are associated with the use of katar in real battles?))) Nobody argues with what the kathars did for Europeans and Maharajas after the sepoy rebellion) But maybe you know the fact that the prince of Wales or someone from the Maharajas in the late 19th century fought using katar? Unfortunately, this fact is not known to me. But you, as the forum patriarch, undoubtedly know better than me. So I held my breath and got ready to listen to you)